City Council · 2019-08-20
City Council - 2019-08-20 (Google Drive recording)
Agenda items and what happened
| Item | Outcome | Source |
|---|---|---|
| Truth in Taxation Public Hearing other session |
discussed only | p.1 |
Items and outcomes were extracted from the agenda and minutes by Claude (Anthropic); each links to the minutes page. The minutes are authoritative.
| Motion | By | Result | |
|---|---|---|---|
| To adjourn the meeting. | David Spencer 2nd Sam Lentz |
✓ Passed | p.8 |
We'd like to welcome everyone out to our Truth in Taxation public hearing this evening and would like to start the meeting with a prayer by Debbie Luray and Councilmember Deborah Luray, and then a pledge by Ryan Clark. You can do it right there if you'd like.
Our Father in heaven, we're grateful for the opportunity we have to gather this evening to Talk about the business of the city, and we're grateful for those who serve and our first responders who are in the line of duty, putting their, their heart and souls and their lives sometimes on the line. We appreciate their great service. We ask that we'll have a civil meeting this evening and that those who will speak will be clear and concise. And grateful for the opportunity we have to serve, and we say this in the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen.
Amen.
Will the audience please rise?
Will the audience please repeat the Pledge of Allegiance with me?
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with With liberty and justice for all.
The audience may be seated.
Thank you, Ryan, and thank you, Debbie. We will now have a presentation concerning our Truth in Taxation meeting by Brandon Nelson from the city and Quinn Monson from Y2 Analytics.
There we go.
There we go. Um, okay, to, uh, the reason we're here, uh, to discuss the, uh, increase in the property tax rate of the City of Orem as outlined in, uh, state code, to provide the opportunity to discuss it and for citizens to come forth and be able to express positives or their concerns regarding the increase. This is a copy of the notice that goes out to all members of the city in the paper, as well as listed on the public website and in various other public places. It just outlines the— and this is created by Utah County as far as the outline, and that follows state code as far as its— the language used, as well as the numbers that are provided by them based on the information that we have Entered into the certified tax rate system. Why is the city seeking a property tax increase? Obviously, part of the increase— the increase that is being requested is to fund 4 new police officers. As part of that, we'll go into some of the reasoning as to why those specific things are being asked for. Why a property tax and not use of some other tax? Property taxes provide a stable basis. If we're going to continue to hire and keep those police officers paid from year to year, property tax provides a better consistent basis to be able to do that rather than depending on something that's more variable such as sales taxes or building permits or other things like of that nature. We have a historical outline of our sales tax and property tax. You can, you can see through here the fluctuations that occur particularly within our sales tax as when you compare that to the consistency of the property tax. From year to year. This is just a brief summary of— you can see over the past basically decade what the— our tax rate— and this is a combined tax rate. There's 2 components to our tax rate which consist of our general operations rate as well as a rate related to general obligation debt. And this includes— these rates here include both of those components. And you can see the tax impact related to the piece that is related to Orem City itself and, and, you know, excludes the Alpine School District, Water Conservancy District, the county, etc. So this is just the impact to that Orem City receives. And you can see from 2010 to 2019 That OREM tax amount is actually slightly lower from that time frame based on the tax rate that we currently have, even despite, as you notice, despite the home values increasing from a $230,000. And this is a specific example. This isn't an— our average rate. This is a specific example from one individual who was Um, kind enough to let us use their, their home as an example. And you can see that despite the home value increasing from that time frame, the property tax amount stays consistent, relatively consistent. As mentioned, the— we're coming forward to increase the property tax to fund 4 new officers. And the cost of that increases $412,000, which, which not only is the cost of the officer but their equipment to equip them as well as provide a vehicle for them. We currently— this is a chart of the number of sworn officers the city's had over the, you know, last 14 years or so. You can see the impact of the recession and the things we had to do as a city to, you know, not only citywide, but the effects on the police department as well, that they weren't the only ones that— or the rest of the city was not the only ones that made a contribution to keeping the city in good fiscal condition. And we've since that time, you know, approximately 2015 there, have gradually Got those police officers back into a reasonable number. However, we feel that that's still short of where we need to be, especially given— and we'll see that here in the future slides— given the number of calls as well as the population growth. As I mentioned, we can see over the last 6 years or so The number of calls has increased 58% from that 50,000 in 2013 to just over 80,000 a year ago. An interesting item of note, if you'll notice, in 2017 there was a small dip in that, and that was a year where we specifically had the police officers were pro— you know, we, we We're able to get enough officers and be proactive in our— especially in relation to traffic, and then they were able to lower the number of calls that had to be responded to because we were being proactive instead of being reactive in nature. And you can see here in the— lately, because of the issues we've been having with Having enough officers, what the impact is related to the number of calls just continuing to— This breaks down the number of officers in relation to those calls, and you can see again the number of calls for each officer continues to rise. Over that time period, 22% increase over that time period. Accidents follow that same pattern. Again, you'll notice the dip in 2017 in relation to that proactive traffic enforcement and how the impact of, of that on the number of accidents that occurred. And we'd like to be able to obviously get the funding to be able to have enough officers continue to do that again. At this time, I'd like to turn the time over to Quinn Monson to discuss the survey that was sent out regarding asking about a property tax increase.
Mayor, Council, if I could, as you remember when we started having the budget discussions and the conversation about hiring additional officers came up and the need potentially to have a a stable source to do that. The request of the City Council was to survey the citizens and understand how they feel about it. As you know, and as many know, there is no legal way for us to put on the ballot an opinion question about whether we should raise property taxes, or even a definitive question about whether we should raise property taxes. Since we had no avenue to do that, we decided to hire a firm that could do a scientific survey and understand from the public how they feel about taxes being raised for this. And so I'll turn— again, like Brandon said, turn the time over to Quinn to talk about the survey research, the really the, the research that went into making the proposal that's before you tonight.
Thank you. And Quinn is with Y2 Analytics, who did the survey.
Yes, thank you for having me this evening. This survey, as you see on the slide, was conducted with our panel of Orem city residents that, that we've been doing survey work for, for the city now for a number of years. And in this case, we have just short of 4,000 emails that were sent and just under 1,500 complete interviews for this survey for a response rate of 37%. And the, the margin of error, sampling error on the survey is about plus or minus 3 percentage points. So the first thing we did was we randomly assigned survey respondents to get one of 3 options. And they were all identically worded. And it's not— the full wording is not shown on the slide here, but there was a longer paragraph description of what this was, this proposal was to raise taxes and a little bit about it. And we wrote it to be as impartial as we could. In fact, let me just read you very briefly what that looked like. It said, Orem City elected officials are exploring options to generate additional revenue for public safety in the city. One proposal that is being considered for public safety funding would be to maintain the city's current property tax rate. Because property values are naturally increasing, this will result in the city's proportion of a homeowner's property tax bill increasing by $5.98 per year for the average home valued at $320,000 in Orem. The revenue generated by this property tax increase would enable the city to add 2 new police officers to the Orem Police Department. Do you support or oppose? And then the other versions were one that had it for— had a slight rate change and had it being $933 per year, and then one that had it as $1,285 per year on the average home. So that's— those are the 3 that you see there listed. But, again, we had a rather— for a survey, kind of a longer paragraph just getting the— giving that basic background and information. And it was our attempt to be as impartial as we could about just presenting what we knew. We're not trying to sell it, just give them the facts as we knew them. And you'll see from the slide that there's overall strong support for all 3 of the options. It goes down slightly as the— as the price tag goes up. But the relatively modest, you know, $1,285 per month still gets over 60% of the residents that's either strongly or somewhat—
$1,285 per year.
Yes.
Not per month.
Correct.
Sorry.
Yeah, that's a big deal, right? So it's— you get the strong level of support. Now, as a follow-up to these, we asked right after they came— after they gave their answer to the one that they were randomly selected to, please explain why you would support or oppose this proposal, depending on what they said. And among those that supported it, it was— here's a smattering of the kind of answers we got. You can read all of them in the report that we delivered to the city back in April or May. But here— these are sort of representative in the sense that lots of people expressed expressing their support for safety, public safety in Orem, wanting to be safe and remain safe, and that the police are doing a good job. So that was kind of typical that we saw. And then the people that were expressing opposition, as you can see here, were just kind of upset about taxes in general. I don't think it was a reflection about the police as much, though there's a little bit of that about traffic enforcement perhaps, not wanting to see more of it. Maybe understandable if you've gotten a ticket recently or something, but mostly nothing too surprising. What's interesting is that we then followed up that initial ballot with some short statements that had people sort of reporting to us why or how a certain statement would— might affect them, whether it would make them much more likely to support, somewhat more likely to support, somewhat more likely to oppose, or much more likely to oppose. And the slide doesn't have room to put the entire statement up, but you can see that we tested 5 different statements giving some information about how the number of calls per officer have increased. Another one that was popular— and they're sort of arranged in descending order of of the ones that would— that people reported would be— would affect them the most in terms of supporting it. The revenue would be exclusively for the Orem Police Department and not be used for anything else. So reassuring them that this was all that it would be used for, that wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be done and then raided to do something else, that was reassuring to voters, I think, and the residents. And then showing this first one that with the number of calls per officer increasing, showing This demonstrated need that population growth and other things have led to more calls per officer. And then the number of officers changing, meaning the city has lost officers at the same time as population has gone up. And then this— there's this argument about less time spent in traffic, enforcing traffic, would lead to more accidents. So there's good data that shows this, and presenting that was persuasive Persuasive to some. And then the least persuasive was the one where we just said Orem hasn't raised property taxes in 41 years. And people didn't see that as the strongest reason, although it didn't make them want to vote against it either. All right? And then we come back after presenting admittedly some pretty positive arguments for it to say, look, here's the rationale that if we were to do this, this is why we would do it. You ask them again the same treatment that they got before, and you can see the support goes up significantly across all 3. So where before it was, you know, 3/4 when you combine strongly support and somewhat support, now on the top one, it's still about 3/4 that support it, but you get a bare majority of 50% that strongly support it. So just a few statements expressing the need was enough to push a number of Orem residents into the strongly support column. And even that slightly more expensive $1,285 per year option garners now over 70%, where before it was just over 60% combined. So it changed attitudes significantly. So the bottom line here is that Orem residents are quite happy with the overall quality of life in the survey— in Orem, and that And they support the property tax increase idea as a majority, but they tend to support it even more when given some reasonable arguments in support of it. And I'll stop there. If there are any questions, I can answer them.
Anything for Quinn at the moment?
Nope.
Nope.
All right. So just to kind of continue on, this chart gives us an idea of where Orem sits in relation to our property tax rate in relation to other cities, not only here in the, in the valley, but also some comparable cities.
Oh, Brandon, maybe one thing would be helpful to mention with regards to this is that the amount of property tax Orem receives of the total tax property tax bill that a resident pays is about 15%.
Correct.
Because there are 5 taxing entities that make up the property tax revenues.
Right.
Correct.
And that's remained obviously pretty consistent from year to year, at least for the 14 years I've been here. That's been pretty—
So you've got the Alpine School District, you've got Central Utah Water, Metropolitan Water Board, Utah County, and the City of Orem. And we're only 15% of that total pie.
Correct.
You can see we, we still, even with the property tax increase proposed, we, we still sit pretty low in comparison to most of the other cities, um, in, in this grouping. Some of these others, the ones that are highlighted, are also proposing tax increases. So depending on how those have gone, we may change a slight position, but even such, I think we would just land somewhere between Sandy and Payson, I think, is where we would land.
If—
Sam, do you have a question?
Yeah, so Provo, for example, um, that doesn't include the property taxes that go to their school district, right? That's just specific to Provo as a city?
Correct.
Okay, just making sure. Thank you.
So the, the impact on an average home, and keeping in mind that homes are taxed at 55% of their assessed value, the county has indicated that the average residence in Orem is $302,000 and that the rate would increase from $151.32 to $163.28. For the tax rate that we have proposed, for $11.96 per year, an increase of— for an impact on the business, they are assessed at full value, and the value for per $100,000 would go up by $7.20.
Any questions?
You're, you're free to discuss.
Okay, nothing further from your table? Okay, we will have a discussion as a council in a minute, but we want to open this up for a public hearing. So we—
Mayor, before we do that, could I just ask one question on the number of calls?
Sure.
Um, so in 2018, there was roughly a 35% increase in the number of calls, and that seems like an awfully lot for just A single year. Is there something having to do with the way that we classified or grouped these? Does this include 311 calls or NPU calls? Chief Childs, maybe you could address that, because I have a hard time believing we saw, you know, a 35% increase in crime, for example, in a single year. But I'm just trying to make sense of that jump.
So.
I don't see if it's on. You know, I don't know the exact reason for the jump. In 2017, we were talking about it a little earlier as far as a little bit of a dip. And the thing that I would suggest on that is that we were being a little more proactive and actually cutting down on some of the crimes. So by being more proactive, we were able to have a little bit of a drop. Now, as it went back up, we started getting— if you remember in 2017, We had some of our MPU officers had left. We didn't have an MPU unit that was fully staffed. So there were quite a few different factors that went into play as 2017 went into 2018 as far as having, for example, code enforcement now having the 3 officers in there. Right now, if we were to go into 2019, we would have to change the way we did the data because what we've had to start doing now is changing the way that we're actually starting calls. So we don't start a case number for every single thing that the officers respond on like we used to, because it actually helps save time. And because we're so shorthanded right now, we're trying to do it a different way. We're trying to work smarter, not harder. By— so in all reality, we're— we've actually switched the way that we're doing calls now. It would actually be reduced for the number that we have. So I couldn't explain exactly why there was such a jump in 2018.
Do we, do we have handy a list of the breakdown for what types of calls those were as far as this was code enforcement, this was a health call, this was those types of things?
I didn't— I don't have that with me right now, but I could, I could easily get that.
That would help.
Thank you.
Councilmember Sumner has a question.
Yeah, we've, we've put into effect the 311 line. When was that, about a year ago, or August of 2018, the middle of August. Have you noticed a large increase from that? Can you tell?
I wouldn't say that there was an increase. I mean, we are— as a police department, we've always had a 311 center, and that's our dispatch. So when anybody called for a pothole or, or a street sign that was down, they would call dispatch. So we've always kind of had our own little 311 center. 311 has obviously taken away from them having to deal with a lot of those calls. But I don't think the 311 center necessarily took away from a lot of the calls that the police officers were responding on. What it's done is centralized where those calls go rather than dispatch. So as far as the officers responding, I think we're still responding to the same number of calls. They're just going to a centralized location rather than dispatch.
It's only a different route, basically.
Yeah.
And the only thing I may add is the 311 center has made it much easier to submit them online and just really quickly. So somebody that maybe wasn't prone to call but can quickly fill out a form. We get a lot more of those now than we used to.
Jamie, did you ever—
If I may too, yeah, we did some research at the request of a citizen about a month ago, and I believe we had about 70,000 calls that were made into the 311 center. No, since inception, so August of 2018 through about July 1st of 2019.
Okay. All right, thank you, Chief. Appreciate it. So we're going to go ahead and open it up for public comment. We would ask that you keep your comments to 3 minutes, that you announce your name, and also that you write your name printed on a sheet there on the podium. And I would ask that if you're going to speak, that you just line up on the side of the wall so that we have an orderly progression of people who want to speak, and we will have it open for as long as people wish to speak. So we will go ahead— yes, Mark. Mayor, would it be possible to ask questions of the chief so we can get an understanding about what this is about? We're not going to necessarily have a discussion, but you're welcome to talk to him before you come up if you want to speak. So he's there in the crowd. So we'll go ahead and open it up, and again, if you would give us your name and print your name on the sheet of paper there.
My name is Judith Williamson. I have lived in this community for 50-plus years. I am a retired nurse from the state hospital. I've also worked at Utah Valley Hospital for 5 years. I am acutely aware of the need for experienced staff. If you don't have experienced staff, you don't have the right tools to take care of people. I live in this community. I have been made aware of the fact that many of our firefighters have gone to other communities, are considering going to other communities, and we've got people coming in, bless their hearts that they're willing to come, because I understand that the wages that they're making is $15 an hour. You can make, you can make that at Walmart, and they're putting their lives on the line. We need experienced staff. I don't really even feel comfortable calling the fire department now for help if I have a medical emergency. We need to look at this issue. Thank you.
Thank you.
My name is Guy Gussman. I would have asked the city manager to see if he remembers my name at all, but I would doubt it. And that's interesting for the fact that I retired from Orem City 4 years ago after 37 years employed with this city on the police department. I ended my career as a watch commander, as a lieutenant on this— for this city. And I came tonight Yes. Because I've seen this great department, both police and fire, on a downward spiral. And that's a little distressing on, on my part. When I hired on this department in 1979, I was one of 200 applicants for my position. And now you can't get applicants to come and test for them, hardly. Um, back in the day, it took 9 years for me to even be able to test for sergeant. Now officers join this department, and after a year they're becoming field training officers.
That's discerning.
Is, um, what is not understood by the majority of the citizens of the city is not only are officers just leaving and we're trying to replace officers, but you're losing experience. You're getting officers that are becoming detectives with lesser and lesser experience. I know of a detective who worked sex crimes, recently retired. He said he couldn't handle it any longer. His workload increased exponentially because of his experience. And because of the amount of experience he had, he just couldn't take it any longer, so he left for another agency. And we're seeing that here at Orem, both in police and fire services. You have a great police chief. You have a great fire chief. But the experience is lacking, and heaven forbid that we have a major incident in this city and we don't have the officers that have the experience or background to be able to deal with it. Like I said, it took me 9 years to become a sergeant on this agency. It took me almost 20 years to get to lieutenant.
Thank you.
I served as a detective. I was a school resource officer. I was a CIT. I was the crisis information— crisis mental health regional representative for Utah County. So I had a lot of experience, and that experience is lacking and missing in Orem City on the police department now.
Thank you.
$1 a month increase is nothing. Thank you.
Thank you.
Mayor, may I? Mayor?
Yes.
Just for me, it would be helpful if when you're speaking you could say whether you're for or against the property tax so we kind of get a gauge. That's, that's the purpose of it.
Sure.
I'm not sure, Judith, what were you in favor of or opposed to the property tax?
It depends on what you're going to do with the money. If you're going to pay the firemen more money and the police more money—
It's to hire 4— it's to hire 4 more police officers. Okay, thank you.
Gus, you're good.
Thank you. Go ahead, Spencer.
My name is Spencer Rands. I am, of course, one of the candidates for city council, but I'm not coming here as a candidate for city council as much as a concerned citizen. And just to throw it out right at the beginning, I am against the property tax, but very much in favor in giving more funds and more support for our police. Because I think what we've seen over the years is a misprioritization of funds. If you look just at this year's budget alone and you take the increases that different funds have gained from prior year. You'll see very clearly if you put that into a percentage where the priorities are being placed. And just to kind of rank those, police this year after the increases would be ranked as 5th, fire would be 6th. Police receiving 3.7% increase, fire 3.68% increase, while other funds like city manager 14%, administrative services 10%, development services 6.7%. And so I think that clearly shows a misprioritization. I'd like to see police and fire at the top. I think that's where they deserve to be. And I apologize if this sounds abrasive. I don't mean it to be. But as I read through the budget, to me it seemed less like a priority and more like a hostage negotiation. On page 4 of the city budget, it reads, if the mayor and city council fail to approve the property tax, the 4 additional officer positions will not be included in the final adopted budget. And to me, I thought, well, whether they approve the tax increase or not, we need the 4 officers, so why tie it to the, uh, the tax increase? And so I think we need to find those funds elsewhere. We need to reprioritize. I've put together a proposal, and I've got about 15 of these here, which is not enough for everyone, but certainly enough for City Council and a handful, um, that without a tax increase provides an additional $500,000, which I believe is more than we need for the 4 officers, to the police department. It provides $125,000, uh, to the fire department and gets our priorities more in line and puts police at number 1 and fire at number 2 respectively in regards to the percent increase they would see If you can hand those to Brandon, he can pass it out to the council. Absolutely. And so it's got all those numbers on there. But yeah, so I don't think we need the tax increase. I think that, that we need to reprioritize where we're distributing our funds and how we're distributing our funds and putting, putting our money where our mouth is, really, as far as to how we distribute those, those funds to different priorities. If you didn't get a copy of one of those, you can find one on the website, voterands.com. I've got that full thing there as well because I know there's more than I have to hand out. And lastly, our police officers deserve our respect. We deserve certainly as much respect as they have always shown us. And I think the best way that we can show them that respect is through, through prioritizing those, prioritizing those funds in their direction.
Thank you.
My name is Melissa Wilson, and I am a little intimidated after getting up behind Spencer Rand with all those numbers. But I moved to Orem from Chicago 18 years ago and have 6 young children, and our family has come to appreciate the safe atmosphere that Orem provides. I originally came up pro-tax increase, but I am curious to see how else the funds could be distributed and found in the city.
Thank you.
I love the safety Orem provides, but I fear all this is about to change. The city is already seeing a mass exodus of first responders, and I for one can't see this as anything except detrimental. We are losing our long-term, highly trained men and women who have dedicated their service to Orem for years. They banked their careers on our city because at one point in time we treated them well. Now many of them are choosing to leave mid-career to work for cities that will recognize and compensate them for their extra experience.
Thank you.
Experience and training. Our departments are understaffed and our first responders are overworked. This is a terrible combination to have for those that we depend on so heavily. They will be the ones we call at our lowest moments in life. They are the ones working the hardest to keep us safe. We can offer entry-level positions to try to fill the holes, but unless the pay raises match the continued training experience these men and women go through, these new hires will leave Orem for a better-paying job elsewhere as soon as they realize And the cycle will begin all over again. I've lived in areas where the police were not your friends. I've been involved in— with paramedics that lack experience and bedside manner. This is not the case with Orem. Our first responders are heavily involved with our community, and their commitment to our city should in turn be repaid with higher wages, better hours, and continued benefits. City Manager Jamie Davidson has the following on his web page. The city of Orem continues to be recognized as one of the premier communities in Utah. He then boasts excellent job opportunities, good schools, and one of the lowest crime rates in the community— in the country. But where do we think that comes from? If we're a premier city, should we not have to pay for premier safety? We are lacking in crossing guards. Our police department is always hiring, and our firefighters are leaving for cities that will compensate them for their training. I recently asked a family member who is in law enforcement if they would ever consider a position in Orem. He assured me that unless there was a massive change in the way that our first responders were compensated, we would be searching for good men— and I add women to this—
forever.
When one of our first responders is injured or worse, loses their life in the line of duty, we're quick to call them heroes. Why can't we treat them like heroes before it's too late? Help them see their families more often by allowing them to work regular shifts and not having to constantly fill the holes that Orem can't. Add more positions. Keep our city full of highly trained, highly experienced and highly paid first responders so we truthfully can boast that we're a great city to live and work for. Keeping our city safe isn't just about having first responders. It's about having excellent first responders. Let's not lose the ones we still have. I truly believe the best way to lead is by example. Let's be the example. Let's show Utah how to take care of the ones we need in our time of crisis. Let's allow them the careers they set out to achieve. Thank you.
Thank you.
Hello.
Hi.
My name—
what?
I said hi.
Hi. My name is Dave Young, and I'm a— I'll sign the thing. Hang on.
Okay.
You can reset his clock if that—
Okay, my name is Dave Young, and I know a number of you on the council, and I'm against the tax increase. I'm generally against pretty much any tax increase. As we watch our sales tax go from 4% when I moved here to 7% currently, every tax increase is just a pathway that never ends because there's never enough money. I am concerned that as far as this meeting, we didn't get any notice, and no one that I know got a notice, even though there's supposed to be notices given. I think that's where the lack of participation tonight is. I also just want to say that the survey, I think, has some— I work a lot with surveys, and I could, if you want to pay me, I can do a survey that will show you the exact opposite of what that survey shows.
And I—
one argument I get tired of, there was an article in the newspaper that said that property taxes haven't been increased since 1978. And that sounds really compelling, that property taxes haven't been increased since 1978. But it's just not true. When I built my house in 1990 in Orem, my property tax was around $900 a year. Now my property tax is around around $2,900 a year. Now, maybe I'm not that bright, but I'm pretty sure my property taxes went up $2,000 over the time I've been living here. So property taxes do increase. And I understand what the details— what we're talking about is— we don't have time to go into the details, but we're talking about a mill rate versus an actual property price adjustment. I think that we, we shouldn't be fundamentally changing the rules. We have a system in place. It doesn't make sense to change the mill rate and when it's worked since 1978. The real issue is management and budgeting. You should not increase taxes as an excuse for not managing a budget. There's $44 million, according to the website, there's $44 million in total wages that went out last year to the employees of Orem. The city manager department received $2.5 million of that. The city manager and his assistant received $441,000 of that. The library, the wages for library, $2.7 million. The head librarian was paid $167,000.
That's not true.
That's a lot of money, especially— I haven't been to the library since I was a BYU student 40 years ago. Anyway, my point is there's a lot of money there to work with. The police department wages showed at $12.5 million roughly, fire department $7.5 million. So it's not a matter of every time we need more money, we just raise taxes. That's not the way it works in real life. In real life, you take the resources you've got, you work with them, and you work within that budget. And that's what I encourage you to do. Thanks.
Thank you. Thank you.
My name is Phil Murphy. Again, it's a pleasure to be here in front of you, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here. And I do respect you as a city council and the city management being able to listen to citizens. It's difficult sometimes to hear these opinions, but I'm glad that you're willing to do so in the process we have. That being said, it's, it's interesting. Have you seen, have you seen some of the charts tonight? You've seen some of the graphs and the staggering numbers. And I look at some of these numbers and there's cause for concerns in many ways. Orem has grown dramatically. When I started in 1984 at the police Department. We were around 60,000 people, I believe, in the city, and we're just under, I think, 98,000 now. But the calls for service— and it is, you know, an interesting problem. I'm glad you addressed that and asked for maybe why there was an increase. I always prided myself with the officers I worked with that we would respond to any call, to any citizen, whenever they needed anything, from unlocking their car door, which was nonstop to every noise complaint or whatever it might be. Orem is known for being very service-oriented, and so we respond to every call. And but what I, what I'm very alarmed at and what I'm dumbfounded about is why we're only talking about 4 officers. We're not talking about additional fire staff. We're not talking about additional dispatchers. We need more in every one of those divisions. I commend the council for the fact that you've addressed Yes. It's finally a minor, minor change. Finally change the tax rate. It's staggering that we've gone since 1978. And the taxes that have been addressed to were not going to Orem. Orem's taxes have not changed since 1978. So finally, I'm glad to see that you're addressing this. We need 4 times the amount of people you're talking. The amount of officers that are on patrol has not changed for decades. The same amount of officers are patrolling the streets. Now, we have increases in school resource officers, we have detectives, we have other positions, and that's fantastic. Orem has needed to do— has needed those changes. But as far as the core element of patrol officers that people see in the calls that they respond to, it is staggering. And it's very alarming. And we really need to address the fact this is a— this is just the tip of the iceberg. We really need to look at this of other budget opportunities, other conversations to staff this department significantly better than it is now. I don't think— I was very surprised. I really appreciate Gary Giles, and I know that he couldn't probably say certain things, but when he was asked if this was enough I would have loved to have heard him just shout, it's a start, but I need a lot more. And I think you understand that. I think you know that he has to be very careful about that, and he's very respectful of that. But I'm going to shout on his behalf, give him a lot more. He needs a lot more help, and it's difficult for him to say that. Thank you.
Thank you.
Evening.
I'm David Bussaith. I oppose the tax hike but favor a lot more resources to police and firemen on the same premise that others have. And I just want to ask 2 questions that have bothered me and others I've spoken with a lot as we've been reading and hearing about this proposal. The first one is, are tax hikes that are being tied to a purpose like this, more police officers, ever restricted exclusively to the original purpose? If not, isn't it just a ruse? I mean, if this money that you're proposing could be spent in any other way, are you not just using police officer needs as leverage to try to convince citizens this very much annoys me. The second question is, isn't there enough income from high-rise apartments that have been built to provide the extra infrastructure needed? If not, shouldn't there be more impact fees applied to them since they will probably be the main source of need for more police officers? Thank you.
Thank you.
Hi, my name is Mark Tippett. I live at 876 South 725 West in Orem. I just want to say that I am opposed to the tax increase, but I'm not opposed to finding ways to help the policemen. And I would like to see that this problem get addressed thoroughly and completely. And I believe that 4 policemen is just a Band-Aid for what Orem really needs. I found out today when I went down to the county that high-density housing apartment complexes are assessed the same rate as residents. In my mind, they're a business. I come to that conclusion because if we raise their tax rate, you're probably going to say they're just going to raise the rent. Well, that's what a businessman does. He covers that cost. Now, that tax rate is controlled by the state. Well, as a city and as citizens, we need to get a hold of the state and tell them that high-density housing needs to be assessed as a business tax. That would double the amount that you would get from those entities. We also need to come together as a, as a city And see if we can find ways that we can assess this problem. Well, I think what upsets me the most is safety of our citizens is one of our number one concerns. When you plan a budget, that should be the first thing you address. If the police chief needs 10 more officers and not 4, you find the money for 10 more officers.
Thank you.
And the money to keep them here. Then you go to the other areas of the budget and you trim where you need so that you can meet those needs. It's just, to me as a taxpayer, it doesn't seem right that you're holding the policemen hostage for a tax increase. I think you need to address those issues and get it done. Get them the money that they need.
Thank you.
And then trim your budgets. And then let's look at ways to where we can find the money. Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm Emily Vance. Um, I am against the tax increase because it is only on these exact stipulations held to, to being able to allocate that money to the police department. It's been stated fire department Dispatch, all these other departments are also in need as well, not just the fire or the police department. But say that we do do that, we hire 4 officers, we've just lost 6, so we're still behind 2 and counting. We can't keep track of how many officers are leaving the city of Orem, how many firefighters are leaving the city of Orem, because they're leaving too quickly. Say you do hire those 4, you're paying for the cost of the academy to send them to the academy, their wage while they're in this process, plus a 12-week training process once they're hired with an experienced officer to make sure that they are doing what they need to do on the street. So the academy is 3 months plus the 12-week. That's a very long time before we actually have more bodies on the street in addition to the cost that it's paying out for the academy, their wage. And then there is no obligation for them to stay in the city of Orem. Nothing keeps them here. They can immediately go and leave to another city, another department that will hire them more. Another issue I find with this situation with all these officers leaving is my husband is a police officer with Orem City. And he will go into his shift and there will be 7 to 8 guys on his crew for the day shift for the city of Orem, for everybody that comes in to work, to play, to do all the things that they do. And say that he has 2 officers that call in sick. So now they're down to 6. And then officers that already have time off for vacation, etc. There have been times where the city of Orem has only had 4 police officers on patrol or to 5 officers on patrol at one time to cover the whole entire city of Orem. And you're telling me that that is not a huge concern, that my husband's safety while he is out there— say that they get a handful of 911 calls, a baby in the north end is not breathing. And then you got a car accident down with a fatal in the south end, and you have 4 guys that are supposed to cover that. And that's every day that type of stuff happens. And then my husband is supposed to go and spread all of that amongst the officers that he works with. And it just— it's not— it's a liability. You're taking a liability because if my husband gets in a situation that is legally— or say he gets shot in the line of duty, Orem City is legally liable, and you can guarantee that that will be an issue. It is a huge issue for us, and we want to make sure that we are being supported by our city.
Thank you.
Hi, my name is Lisa Wilkie. I spoke to you last the last city council meeting. My issue today is my son actually is now going elsewhere. He's worked here for 11 years. He's now had another offer and he's going to go because of the situation in the city manager's office. They were told, if you remember at our last meeting, we had our firemen here. They're concerned about our city, which they should be. Which they should be here because they're the ones that are protecting our city. They are the ones who are going out on the front lines and taking care of the things that happen in our city. They were told not to come. They're not to come in uniform. They're not to come at all while they're on duty. Now I ask you, City Council, is that right? No, it's not right. They should be able to come and hear what is happening in our city. They were told by the city management in the city manager's office. He told the chiefs to call their crews and tell them that. Now, that's not right, and I have issue with that because I feel like— who in this room is afraid of a room full of firefighters? Raise your hand. Or do you feel safe? Raise your hand. I feel safe when I see a room full of firefighters or police officers. Everyone should feel safe.
Thank you.
So why couldn't they be here? That's my question to you, and I think it's a very, very important question that you need to ask each other. Where and when are we going to stop this bullying that is happening right now? Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm Barbara Petty. I've lived in this community for 25 years, and I've watched our community quality of life go downhill because of improper representation. My husband and I lived on— live on fixed income. We have increasing medical bills, which happens with the aging process. I speak for a lot of my friends who are in the same situation. I'm vice chairman of my legislative district, so I'm— when I hear somebody stand up here and talk about a survey that they've taken where Orem citizens are happy, that's a false survey. They haven't done a complete survey. They've— because we have 3 condo associations, 274 people weren't even notified of this meeting. You have a responsibility to notify people when you have a truth in taxation meeting. Dave Young summed it up, as did Spencer Rans, on the mismanagement. I don't know how you can sit there and take your salaries and be so comfortable When you've let the police and the fire department go so underfunded. It's disgusting.
If we—
they are more important to us than you are, because if we don't have— if we can't live in a safe community, there's no use living here. I'm pretty upset. You can tell that. The tax increases is a sloppy way of managing government. It's easy to take somebody else's money, and that's what you're doing. You've got money. You should be readjusting the way you spend it. As far as I'm concerned, we could have 7 people in the body of Spencer Rounds up here. Doing a better job than the 7 of you. I mean, seriously, you've been sitting and watching the deterioration of our fire and our police and their proper funding. It's shameful. It's outrageous. And I suggest you do something about it before your own safety is at risk. Thank you.
I'm Martin Wright, and I've taken in everything that's said here today, and I hate to be the disagreer of the disagreer, but sometimes you have to pay for what you get. Everything in life is not free. Having police officers is not free. Having great parks is not free. Having good roads are not free. I went through today and I kind of took the time and went through the— went through property taxes, what I've paid over the last few years, what I used to pay when I lived outside of Washington, D.C. in Maryland. We pay nothing. We pay nothing for what we have. We have great trails. We have great parks. We don't pay anything. For heck's sakes, this tax increase should have said not just to hire police officers, but it should have been to fund the city correctly and do the things that we have to do so we keep good people in the city. Why, why do we have to argue?
You know what?
If a police officer leaves, we should know why, and we should have the last say in saying, hey, you know what? We're going to give you a better offer, and we want you to stay here. But I don't think that's what's happening. I think they're taking these offers and just going because they're not giving a better. We're down at least ten police officers. The last count I got, we're down at least ten. There's no way we're hiring ten in the next year. No way. So what happens to all those extra wages that are out there that aren't being paid, that are already in the budget? Why don't those go to police officers and firefighters? They're there. You know what? I've been— I've worked a lot. And how do you keep people happy? Well, with less workload.
No.
If you pay people correctly, they're happy. They don't mind working more, right? You don't mind working more if you're making more money, if you feel like you're productive. This tax increase is a sham. It should be double that because we haven't had a tax increase. But my tax increase all goes to the county schools. Every one of the tax increase goes to county schools. You know, we voted down a tax increase a couple years ago to fix our roads. UCPG, you want their roads? Go ahead, don't do a tax increase. That's what I said. Right? If you've driven through PG, look at their roads. They're horrible. There's nothing wrong with a tax increase if it's used correctly. And we need to figure out how to use it correctly. We need to figure out how to use funds that aren't being used right now that have already been allocated to make sure that we don't lose more people. We don't lose more firefighters. We don't lose more police officers. We need to look for a solution and not just blame it on, well, other cities are stealing. We shouldn't allow that. We should say, if you're leaving, we'll pay you $4 more an hour and we'll take care of you. To give them a 3% increase over a year from last year to this year is ridiculous since we haven't given them an increase in a long time. Thank you.
Thank you.
My name is James Vance. When I came to Orem 14 years ago, it was the place to be in all of Utah County. It was the place that everybody trained and fought for to be the end location for their career. They wanted to retire with Orem because it was prime. Job opportunities, advancements, all sorts of things. Now, when I have friends in other agencies, they, they ask, should I come to Orem? I don't know if I have that pride anymore. I don't plan on going anywhere with Orem. However, there's people all the time asking me, you should go, you should go. I got 14 years, I've done all sorts of things. I could easily go to other agencies. We stay, those that are still here, Stay because we love this city. And that we'll work and we'll take a bullet for any one of you guys, no matter how many people we have here. Now, how much do you guys care that your citizens are protected or not? This increase, I don't know if I'm for or against it. I don't care. You guys need to figure it out. It's time to, to fix the mess-ups that have happened over the last 8 years since the recession. Yes, the recession was bad. Now, not so much.
Thank you.
Okay. Now, either you increase or you reallocate your funds, something. Um, I mean, I'm up here. Yeah, I might get in trouble for voicing my opinion up here, but you guys have dropped the ball over these last 5 years, 8 years, that we don't feel the support anymore. Guys are, are shipping out because they know they'll get support, they'll get the funds, they'll be able to raise their family without having issues. So right now, work crews are— our crews, my crew, I have 14 years. My sergeant has 14 years. Everybody else, 3 years or less. That's a whole entire crew with 3 years or less. I train a guy, he's not worth his salt for a year and a half. It's not until you get the actual experience. I'm sorry, you can't get in the first fistfight in the first 6 months. You can't take your first domestic where somebody just got their butts kicked so hard that you don't know what to do. You can't do that all at one time when they're in training. To figure out if these guys can handle the job. They just— it doesn't happen for another year, for about a year to 2 years before somebody actually knows that this job is for them. It's a calling in life. Fire is the same way. That when you're scooping the brains off the street, you don't know if that's going to be something that's going to affect you to where you don't get to sleep at night until you do it. Well, guess what? That's 3 times this year I've seen it.
Thank you.
And if you're brand new, you don't get to see that. You won't know until a year. And guess what? They're either gone because they can't handle it, or they go someplace that's going to respect them more and pay them more. Yeah, that's it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hello, my name is David Halliday. I am a resident here in Orem, and I'd like to start off by saying I am for the property tax increase. Strongly for. Unreservedly.
Fully.
I'd like to tell you my reason why. For the past 6 months, I've been attending city council meetings. I've been talking with people up and down our community, inside our government. I've had the opportunity of talking with both Fire Chief Gurney and Chief Giles, and I agree with them. They are— they have underpaid officers, they are overworked, and they are understaffed. And frankly, if it takes just $12 a year, $1 a month, so we can have 4 to 5 more police officers, that is completely worth it in my book. Completely worth it for there to be an extra man on the shift, for there to be an extra man when anything goes down. I would want to treat this as we treat someone who is in an emergency situation. Now, I have not seen too many emergency situations firsthand. I count myself lucky. But I imagine that when someone's in trouble, you don't go rifling through their pockets to find out whether they have insurance and money to pay for the care they're about to get. You pay, you do what needs to be done to save their life first, and then you move on. Now, there's a lot of great ideas for how we can change the budget, and I'm glad Spencer presented that. And I think one of the things that the council should discuss after the public hearing is why, why does the city justify the 14% towards the management and the 6 or 7% increase towards the city council? That's fine, please justify it. But know that, yes, I do approve of this property tax increase for the sole purpose of our first responders. And on top of that, I would like to see some genuine efforts for reallocation to give these departments more funding as we're growing. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I know I'm not your favorite.
Can you tell us your name, please?
It's Miriam Murphy.
And can you write it?
Um, I wasn't going to say anything today.
Can you write your name down?
I will.
Where's the pen?
Thank you.
I wasn't going to say anything today, but when I walked— before I walked in here tonight, or yeah, this evening, And I found out that word got out to our firefighters that they were not allowed to come to a city council meeting. That was the last straw. You are intimidated by men in uniform. That's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard in a public setting like this. What happened to freedom of speech? These brave men and women have the right. I've heard this at every time we started coming, that people were telling our officers and our firefighters not to come. I don't know how many times we have to tell you. I'll get on TV and say our city council is threatening and our city manager is threatening our officers and our firefighters and those in uniform that they cannot come and show their support. It's not your lives we're talking about. It's their lives, their families, the citizens in this room. That's who they're here to protect. And I sure as heck hope I don't hear that ever again.
Thank you.
Because that kind of bullying isn't going to be tolerated.
Good evening, Council. I also had not—
What is your name, please?
Murray Lowe is my name. I had not planned planned on speaking today. And I have felt that almost everything that I've wanted to say has been said against this tax increase. I do want to note, though, that there are a couple of reasons why there are problems here. One is money-related and one is morale-related. And I don't see a plan to address either, any kind of long-term plan to increase funding for fire or police that makes any sense in the long term. I don't see the type of leadership here that is creating the type of morale that would encourage and attract and retain the best people here. And so my ask of council is for you to develop a plan that allocates significantly more money to police and fire and less money to your own administration, and to create a plan Thank you.
Good evening.
My name is Carly Skogard, and I just want to take a few moments of your time to voice my support for the tax increase. You know, a citizen that lives here in Orem. In addition, I have grown up in Utah County. I met my husband, he was employed in northern Utah, and I told him, I want to move and I want you to work in Orem. The position that I held—
Can you pull the microphone down a little?
Yes.
Thank you.
The position that I held at the time was I was a child protection worker for Western Region, which covers all of Utah County. And in that position, I worked with law enforcement because I investigated allegations of sexual abuse and severe physical abuse. So those are cases with babies who have broken bones, bruising, multiple bruising, and burns. In my work with all of those law enforcement agencies in Utah County, there was only one I would ever allow my husband to work for, and that was Orem Police Department. He came on as a lateral transfer. He is a huge asset to Orem City because he worked in Ogden and has all of that experience from working there with all of those individuals. He brought that here. As a mother, as someone who is a citizen in this community, I don't want a new officer On his second day responding when my child is unresponsive and he is in a panic trying to remember his training. I want that officer who has been working for 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, who knows how to handle this, who knows what he's doing, who has the right words to reassure me in my times of panic And heartache and honestly terror. That is who I want responding. We need to change. We need to keep our officers who are tenured. We need to bring on lateral transfers. We are not going to survive as a community if we do not do that. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you.
My name is John Zimbrennan, and I purchased a home here in 1991. So 28 years later, the average tax increase is between 12 and 13%. I don't think a change in the mill levy is the appropriate way to handle this. It looks like it's an allocation for priorities. And so if you can't make a budget work with 12 or 13% average increase, there's a real problem. So it seems to me that there needs to be some sharpening of the pencil in certain areas and applying it to where it's most needed based on what's been said here tonight. So I would say I oppose the, the mill levy change Because in a couple years that $12 is going to be $20, and then it's going to be $30 and $40 when you change the mill levy. We're going to be having increases in our property values here because, because that's what's been happening with real estate values. So that's a built-in tax increase that should be the main factor. And, and just make the mill levy work. It's worked for as long as it has, and it should be able to work with better allocation.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hi, I'm Hugh Black. I live in Southwest Durham, and I would say I'm neutral on the tax increase. I think part of the neutrality comes from The idea that if you can pay the max hour rate that it shows on the list for different officers, you know, there's a minimum and maximum hourly rate, that would solve both a morale problem and allow officers to stay. So if that is a possibility by the tax increase, then I fully support it. But if by If the status quo is going to happen where most officers are paid more than around the minimum rate, there's over 70, 80 officers that are at the $30 range or less an hour when the maximum for some of these officers could be as high as $45 an hour. As we look at a $13.5 million budget, a proposed budget for the police officers for the personnel part, When you divide all the 150 that you have established for all personnel in the police department, that comes out to about $90,000 a year per officer. Now, obviously, you have benefits, you possibly have pension, things like that. But if most of the officers are making $44,000, of course there's going to be a morale problem.
And so—
If by the tax increase they can get the higher amount, then that would solve quite a few issues for the city. But if the status quo is going to happen, then I absolutely do not support the tax increase.
Thank you. Do we have anyone else who would like to speak? If not, I'll go ahead and close the public comment portion of our public hearing and bring it back to the council. Any discussion from the council? Councilmember Lurie.
I appreciate the comments that have, that have been this evening, and I agree with all the suggestions. We do need to pay our people more, and I know that we're working on a career ladder for many of our officers that certain certifications and years of experience will, will be increases. I know that the workload is difficult, and while these are new officers, I think 4 will help. And even if they're rookies, everyone has to start somewhere, right? And then— And I'd love to give a retention, a sort of bonus if, if there's someone that wants to move laterally. Let's really look and see if we can offer them or match what they're going to get. So I'm going to look at all of those. I know that we are, we are exploring many of those and many of those things in the next month or so will be— we will be rolling out. I know I personally appreciate the great people we have in my neighborhood. There was a murder over on Geneva in one of those student housing And I remember getting a text saying that, please lock your doors and windows. And it's probably the first time I've ever felt uncomfortable in Orem, ever. And I did. I went around. I locked all of my windows, all my doors, and I double-checked them. And it was the first time I was really nervous. Luckily, that gentleman, I believe in California, who had gone and confessed to his mother, But a quarter a cop a month for me is nothing to feel safer. But I'd certainly want to retain the great people we have. And I know there are people who put their life on the line every day, and I personally appreciate it. And because of you, I do— except for that one night, I sleep well at night, and I thank you. And I don't want anyone ever feeling like they can't come.
Thank you.
to, to talk to us. Firemen, police, anyone can come at any time. We value your opinion. There will be no repercussions. And if we hear of repercussions, we will be very upset. So feel free to tell your people, come anytime. We are willing to listen. And we don't know— we don't have all the solutions. And we, we want to hear from everyone. And everyone has good ideas. But I know that we're working on it, and I appreciate people coming out. And I just appreciate the people that put their life on the line every day. And I, for one, am very grateful. And to the families, I appreciate your sacrifice also.
Any other members of the council? Councilmember Seestrand.
Thank you all for coming. I appreciate the comments. I appreciate the input. I think sometimes when we have a meeting on a specific topic like a tax increase, it may create the impression that that's the only thing that's being done. And I just— from my perspective, that we have been working on getting wage increases and addressing a number of the issues with police and fire for the last little while. That is not part of the tax increase. It doesn't mean that those things aren't being addressed. We are trying within the budget to find ways to fund those additional things, to reprioritize, to move some things around, because we do feel that's part of the responsibility, is to be able to address those issues. There was a series of times in the 2008 to 2012, '13, '14 that there were no raises for anybody.
I didn't get that.
Sorry, Siri. That's, that's fun. Can you say that again? Yes. But, you know, as part of what we do as City Council is we try to look at all the revenue sources and try to balance all the needs of the city and trying to address that. I personally, I don't think doing a comparison on a percentage is at all a reasonable way to look at it because a lot of these budgets are significantly more voluminous in terms of what's going on. So, so to me, I appreciate the analysis, Mr. Ann, but from a standpoint of a comparative budget process, I think looking at total dollars is a better way to look at how we prioritize in terms of getting the money to the biggest, most important departments where they need to go. And again, I say that's a lot of what we've been working on the last several years, is to recognize for a number of years there were no raises and trying to, to make that up. with some percentage increases, some merit increases, some change in, in the pay structure has been something we've been trying to do without the tax increase. The purpose of this tax increase is to say, in addition to those factors, we also want to add more police officers, because the second aspect of what creates the morale and what creates the feeling of wanting to work for Orem is workload. And it's been highly, highly looked at and recommended that in order to reduce workload, to make it not only that you're paid more for your job, but you enjoy your job because you're not so completely overworked, is to add more police officers. And so this was the process that we looked at, was to maximize what we could with existing dollars, to be able to increase the wages the best that we can, to take care of the benefits the best that we can, to get the, the equipment that our officers and our employees need to be able to effectively operate in a safe and a controlled and in a— and frankly, to feel proud that they're driving in a police car that's not peeling the paint. And, and to address those issues within the budget, and then the tax increase was to be able to add additional police officers to help reduce the other factor, which was the workload, which again, I think is critical. We are also looking at coming forward That we know that we're going to need a 4th fire station. We're looking to sources to fund that to be able to address it. We know we need it on the west-southwest side of the city. And that then becomes not just adding 4 firefighters, that's adding 3 crews of firefighters to be able to do that. That's what's coming around the corner and able to be able to address what's going on within our city.
Thank you.
But in the process, we can't ignore the roads, we can't ignore the parks, we can't ignore recreation. And I think, again, that's what we've been trying to do is look at the overall picture, doing the best we can with, with the allocation of those funds and recognizing that we have a great police chief, we have a great fire chief. We appreciate the work they do. We appreciate the people that work for them. We try to work with them in a way that makes viable and, and to be able to go forward. And again, the purpose of this property tax is to increase the number of officers that would help to decrease the workload. So that's how I see it. That's how— and, and continue to say we're continuing to look for funding and ways to be able to address the pay structure. That process continues to go on in looking at specific individual cases, not only to increase, increase it, but also to make it more fair.
Thank you.
is a key part. So I, you know, to think we haven't done anything or that we're not doing anything and we're only looking at adding 4 officers, I think is only seeing a small part of the picture of what's going on.
Thank you. Any comments from any other council members? Okay. Councilmember Lentz?
I'll be a little while, David.
You sure you don't mind?
Okay.
Fair enough.
I love listening to you.
Yes. So I'm not going to be able to respond to every single person that spoke, but there are a few things I've highlighted here that I wanted to talk about. First of all, Murray Lowe, I think he actually hit the nail on the head for me. You know, we've often disagreed on things in the past, but I think the key for me is we need a long-term strategic plan of where we need to be and what it's going to take to be— to to get there. You look at what we had with our water master plan, for example. The first— I think it was one of the first meetings I had on the city council, we were talking about this. How do we get to a point where we can be on a sustainable path to fund our water system so that we can continue to have clean water, adequate supply, our infrastructure is not falling apart? And we made a pretty difficult decision around that time that This is where we need to be within the next few years to be on that sustainable path. And we've had rate increases that it's been unpleasant. You know, we pay all the same water rates that all the other citizens do, and nobody likes to see those things go up. But at the same time, we're not going into debt to fund these water projects like we were for years and years. We had, you know, tens of millions of dollars of debt that we were going into. Because we couldn't sustainably fund those projects. I think what I'd like to see happen with both police and fire over the next few months is how do we come up with a long-term strategic plan to get to where we need to be. And maybe a big chunk of that is going to be future property tax increases to hire additional police officers, additional firefighters. But if you look at opening that— I think it's actually the 5th station that we need to open up.
5th.
Going out and hiring 15 firefighters, we can't just do that in one shot. You need time to ramp up to that. And so what I'd like to see happen as part of that kind of master plan is how do we add 3 firefighters at a time over the next few years so that when we're ready to open up that 5th station, we have people that are trained on our equipment, on our systems, on our processes, so that it's, it's a much smoother transition. And in the meantime, That's going to benefit each of our fire stations on our fire ladder trucks, our engines, our ambulances, so that we have the people where we need them. And if somebody calls in sick, you know, somebody's not forced to work an unexpected overtime shift that frankly costs the city a lot of money because then we have to pay somebody time and a half to cover for them. And so, Murray, I appreciate that we're on the same page there.
Thank you.
With that one. I, I do want to comment, um, and I apologize, I'm going to put our city manager in a difficult, uh, an even more difficult spot here, but I think part of why I've been frustrated with this conversation is we sometimes get sidetracked from the issue that we're trying to solve, and we want to point fingers, we want to blame. And ultimately, if anybody's to blame, it's up here on the city council. We're the ones that set the budget. We're the ones that determine where these funds go. We're the ones that determine how much funds are going to be raised by property tax and things like that. And so I think if we start trying to blame specific individuals that are doing their best to serve our city, to balance the budget, I think it really distracts from the problem of what we're actually trying to solve. And if we go to, well, hey, we need to fire so-and-so, Well, that doesn't solve the problem. That just takes somebody out of the situation and then we have to replace them. That's frankly going to cost us even more money. So I'd like to stay focused, if we can, on what is the issue that we're trying to solve. And in my mind, the 2 keys are how do we properly compensate our public safety employees and how do we hire enough of them so that we can adequately respond to those calls for service so that we can stay proactive Like Chief Giles said. And as far as how we act proactively as a city council, it goes back to that— how do we come up with that master plan of where we need to be in the next 3 or 4 years? I did want to note that there were some salary numbers that were tossed around, and I just want to clarify the numbers that were referenced were not individual salaries, but that refers to total compensation with health insurance and retirement and all those, those types of things. And I Again, I don't think it's fair to vilify people for serving our city in those roles. There was a question about, can tax hikes be tied to a specific use? And Brandon, maybe you could speak to that. Is there a way that we can implement a property tax and legislatively mandate that it can only— Can it only go to this purpose?
No.
Okay.
And I think with this specific proposal, I think it's about as close as we can get where there's one specific number we can tie it out to, to say, you know, hold us accountable. If we don't hire these 4 police officers, then where did that money go? I'm not really sure what more we can do to guarantee that it goes to that aside from let's track how many police officers we have. Over the next year. There's a question about, can we assess— Brandon, another question for you— can we assess apartments a different tax rate than we do homes?
The city cannot. That would have to be done by state law.
And it—
the—
if I'm understanding right, the tax rate is technically the same. The difference is a primary residence gets a 45% discount, you could say, on the amount that's actually assessed, right?
Correct.
Um, we've had some people say that there was no notification on tonight's meeting. Can staff speak to what notification was done in preparation for tonight's meeting?
So, um, I know that the— it's in the paper and on the— in the city website. And we note it in our— the state's—
The county clerk is part of the tentative tax bill, tax notice that goes out to each resident. A property owner earlier this summer, meaning in July, received a notice from the tax— the county clerk stating, this is what your taxes— these are what your taxes were last year, these are what your taxes will be this next year based on what has been proposed, including tax increases. And on the flip side of that notice was information about each community within Utah County, when a scheduled Truth in Taxation hearing would be scheduled. The date and the location and the time. So that is one of 2 required notices that the city is required to publish. The second one is, as Mr. Nelson noted, something that we're required to publish in the newspaper, and we have followed through with that. In addition, this information is available per any city council agenda on our State public notice website, as well as we've included this information a number of times through social media channels, as well as I believe in our citizen newsletter that went out earlier this month. So we have gone consistent with state law in advertising this meeting, and we have gone above and beyond in that regard as well.
Thank you.
Well, to make people aware of this scheduled Truth in Taxation hearing.
Thank you.
There was a question about extra dollars that the departments have if, you know, somebody's not filling a specific position. What happens— and we've talked about this before, but can you explain what happens to those dollars? Does it go off to some other project in the city, or does it remain with the department?
They generally do not stay with the department. They generally fall to the city's bottom line, our reserves. And then when we finish the fiscal year, then that's part of that evaluation as to our fund limitation on our reserves, as well as that calculation of that 15% target rate. And so it becomes part of the money transferred To not only to get below the state ceiling, but also that we can use those funds towards usually capital project items. That's, that's where we end up sending that money is over to capital projects.
And I— my understanding is that there have been some cases where we've had kind of short-term compensation needs that we've used to address that, but where it's, it's essentially a one-time revenue source, you could say, it wouldn't really be responsible to say, hey, we're going to hire a new police officer with this extra funds because that's going to get used up in just a matter of a couple months, as opposed to, you know, something that's going to extend our department for years to come.
Correct.
Um, as far as— I, I guess one of the most concerning things that I heard tonight was that whether it was police or fire or both, that some of our officers were instructed not to come to tonight's meetings. I was certainly wasn't aware of anything like that. I'm not sure— it's an uncomfortable question, but can staff speak to if or what types of conversations were had in that regard?
I, I did have one conversation with Chief Gurney earlier today relative to Yes. As you recall, all of our fire department employees are essentially assigned to specific geographic areas in the city for response purposes. My direction given to Chief Gurney earlier today was consistent with whatever they do when they're on shift, they need to stay within their assigned shift areas. So for example, if we have firefighters here at the city center and they have a response in Southwest Orem or they have a response in Linden, for example, or Vineyard where we have responsibility, it's important they stay within their geographic jurisdictions. So for those that are on duty, my direction to Chief Gurney was that they stay within their designated service areas. If we have employees that are interested in attending that are not on duty, they're more than welcome to attend.
So it wasn't a blanket, you know, we don't want any police officers, we don't want any firefighters coming, but it was if you're on shift, you need to remain?
No, the specific counsel and direction given— the specific counsel and direction given to The fire chief this afternoon was if they are working in their designated— if they're on duty, they stay in their designated area, just in the same way they stay in their designated area when they work out, when they shop, when they eat. The expectation is that they are going to be available within that designated service area to meet the needs of our customers.
Thank you.
Um, and then a question for Brandon. I think it was Mr. Zimbrennan, and I apologize, I'm mispronouncing that name, I'm sure, but, um, suggested that if we adjust the levy rate, uh, the mill levy rate this year, and let's say it's a $12 impact to my property taxes this year, then several years from now, he's saying that's going to become a $20 or $30 or $40 increase. But my understanding is that the intent— the way that it's calculated is for the amount to stay the same and the rate automatically adjusts depending on how my property value changes in relation to the average Orem property.
You're 100% correct. So as the value of a home goes up, the rate goes down. Now, that's— we don't control The assessment of all the property in the city— the county is the one who does all the assessment— and whether your particular piece of property becomes more valuable in relation to all of the other pieces of property within Orem, we don't control that.
Yep.
And, and there's the possibility that your particular piece of property continues to go up. Because it's of more value to the total than it used to be.
It's essentially just recutting the same pie, but it's not growing the pie.
Correct.
Okay, and then I'll just close with— we've kind of mentioned that we're doing some things to address some of the career ladder things. I'm not sure, Jamie, if you'd like to speak to that, but just to highlight some of the things that we're working on. to address that piece to it in parallel to adding additional officers?
So this is a conversation we've been having throughout the budget process. We recognized obviously that our number one priority was staffing and trying to increase the number of police officers. At the same time, beginning last year, we initiated a career ladder program for both our police, our fire, and our public works technician employees. Since that time, the market continues to be very competitive, and the feedback received by obviously the residents and by employees to you was that we need to add to that program. And so we have been working on the addition of that career ladder program to not just include, for example, firefighters and police officers, but to include police sergeants and police lieutenants, fire captains, and fire battalion chiefs. So we have been working on that in cooperation with Chief Giles and Chief Gurney in the last 4 weeks. We've developed a essentially a path that we all agreed upon based on an employee achieving certain certifications and skill sets and years of service, allowing them to advance and to receive every few years— specifically the 3rd year of a firefighter or police officer's tenure, the 6th year, and the 9th year of a a police officer's tenure, a bump above and beyond the standard merit that employee would be scheduled to receive. There's obviously a cost associated with that, and we also costed out what we believe on a, you know, on a kind of a worst-case scenario if every employee were eligible to receive those bumps and took advantage of that program. what it would cost us. And that number for the next 3 fiscal years is about $650,000. This year, given that this would be kind of the first year that we would implement this program and we would have more employees eligible for it, because, for example, we have fire captains and police sergeants and the like who have been in their position for Right. For more than 3 years, they would qualify almost immediately for that bump in pay. There's a bigger number at the front end of this plan than the back end, and the front end cost is about $340,000. So we do not have $340,000 in unallocated ongoing revenue available. So we have been looking at what we can do within our existing budget to work that $340,000 and that part of the program into our operating budget for this fiscal year. The next 2 fiscal years, you know, we're about $150,000 a year for the next 2 fiscal years, and the plan would be to just work to absorb that and hopefully have growth within our existing operating budget to essentially pay for those needs in the fiscal '21 year and the fiscal '22 year. Given that this program is something that our employees would be eligible for in 3-year increments, we believe that we can get through If obviously we hire an employee today, we can get through the first of those bumps in the next 3 years. And so we have a good— we have good confidence that we can address, uh, current employees and provide them bumps in salary in the next 3 years.
Thank you.
I'll just—
before I cede the floor to David, I know that he's struggling to stay awake through all my questions, but when I was deciding about 4 and a half years ago whether to run for City Council, one of the things that I think helped me most during that process was scheduling a sit-down visit with each of the department directors in the city to understand what are the challenges you're facing, what are your concerns, what are you doing to address those, and what can the City Council do to better support support you with that. And I think one of the things that I enjoyed most with that is it took some of these numbers that I was seeing in the city budget, and I understood the people behind those numbers. I understood the services behind those, the benefits to our residents. And it helped me gain perspective on, okay, if we talk about shifting money from this department or this project to this, That also comes at a cost. And so I love that people are trying to come up with ideas of what we can do to better prioritize public safety. But we also have to be realistic in this money doesn't just come out of thin air and it requires some painful choices. And so, you know, when I ran for city council, I never dreamed that I would be asking for a property tax increase. But here we are. And it's because there's a a demonstrable need for additional police coverage. We also have a demonstrable need for additional firefighters, and I, I want to keep working at that, but understand that that always comes at a cost. So thank you.
Okay, Councilman Spencer.
Are we sure that Sam's done? My thoughts are, uh, since we're in a Truth in Taxation meeting and, um, and all the citizens have come in to speak, um, my opinion is since it's a property tax increase, we need to get it right the first time because we cannot go back. Right now I do not favor the property tax increase as it's right as it stands now. I would like to see the money be able to be used by Chief Gurney and Chief Jowls for police officers and firemen that they might be able to use that money. They can hire new people or they could use these— this money to give bonuses to the people that are leaving Orem. That we're losing that leadership and ability and the seasoned veterans that serve the citizens of Orem. I would like to see that if we're losing somebody to Springville with a $10,000 bonus, pay them the $10,000 bonus and keep them here in Orem. Also, when we hire new officers, it costs $30,000 probably to train. So is it better to have somebody leave And train a new officer at $30,000 or pay $10,000 and keep that individual. So I'm in favor of that. I know I like the STEP program. I think that's fair and that's— Jamie's done a good job with that and appreciate that. I appreciate those all that spoke today that have served Orem and that are retired. Also Lisa Wilkie. Sorry to hear that your son is leaving, which it is a sad thing. We should probably— with this property tax, we probably could have kept him, but that's another story. Also, Emily Vance and James Vance, awesome. Jason Vance, excuse me. Is it Jason or James?
James.
James. I had it right the first time. Okay, we appreciate him coming to speak. And given his honesty and his straightforward— Chief Giles, I have a question on the average years of service in the police department. You know, 1 to 2 years, 3 to 5. Are we, are we that bad? Meaning he's 14 years and his crew is average of 3.
I couldn't tell you the exact average, but we just hired 4 that just got out of the academy. 2 more are brand new. So The last 6 that we've hired have zero experience.
And those that— do you know what's the average of those guys sticking?
I'm sorry, say that one more time.
What's the average number of those guys sticking that come out of the academy and stick with Orem?
As far as, well—
Like washing out. Do they wash out?
That's what I wanted to clarify was, for example, with dispatch, we have a lot more that wash out during training. We have a lot more that come through the academy and they can actually make it through through the training process. There are— there's an officer here and there that don't make it through the training process, but that training process goes beyond the 12 weeks. There's about a 16-week academy, 12 weeks of field training, we hope. That's the normal. And then after that, obviously, they're still new. That decision-making process still continues for quite a while. So that's why we actually have a 1-year probationary period. which most employees have a 6-month— police officers have a 1-year probationary period because of that. And so, as far as the ones that— when you say that stay here, I think what you're probably intending to say is how many make it through the training process without washing out. The vast majority do. Sometimes we have to work with them, and we work with them a lot. if they struggle, and, and there are a few that we've had to let go during their probationary time, but I wouldn't be able to say that there's 33% or 20%. Most get through that, and most will eventually come through that and succeed, but I don't have an exact number for you.
Okay, thank you, Chief. Also, I'm good with you, so—
Okay.
Thanks. Also, I appreciate everybody coming out tonight and speaking. I remember Many years ago I spoke at the Truth in Taxation. I don't know, it was 5, 6 years ago. And, uh, it's, it's great that the citizens— you have responsibility to speak and let us know what you want to hear. So 8 years ago. So appreciate you coming out.
Thank you.
Thank you. Councilmember Sunder.
Uh, yes, thanks, Mayor. And I want to thank all, all the citizens and Employees of the city coming out tonight to this Truth in Taxation. Stephen, I'd just like— well, I've got a couple questions, but maybe you can be thinking about or tell us how the survey is done. There were a few comments about the accuracy, I think, you know, how you come up with the 4,000 that you sent out of the 23,000 or whatever. Maybe you can be thinking about that while I ask these questions or make some statements. As council member, I think Lentz and, um, uh, Seestrand commented several years ago, we, we, uh, adopted a pay-as-you-go. Uh, I was on the council when we went through the recession, and, um, it was not fun. We We dropped like $4 million in sales tax. It was huge. And the city was really struggling. And since then, we've adopted this pay-as-you-go. And you've heard comments about the water plan. And we're doing something. It's in the works. As Councilwoman Larrabee said, we're rolling out a new— structure for our first responders, and it's a process in works. It's just not come up overnight. We've been discussing this, oh, even before the budget season, which was last January. So it's been an ongoing process, but to be honest with you, it—
I'm sorry.
There were 3 or 4 of you that came up with some— well, I'll say it. Mr. Lowe, Mr. Bussa, and Mr. Tippett, you've come up with some great things to throw at us, but I didn't hear any plans. And I'm very disappointed. I'm within a rock's throw of all 3 of you, and you've never called me once.
I did.
to suggest your ideas or plans or any suggestions. And me as a council member, I rely heavily on the members of our community to talk to me. You know, they— all your ideas aren't adopted, but they can be thrown out there and maybe get spinoff from them. But I encourage all citizens to please talk to us.
Thank you.
This is the best place to be employed. It's— I've lived in Orem my entire life and it's always been that way. And we might be a little down now with some morale and pay structure, but it's a competitive world and we're addressing that right this minute and we're going to come out with some new structure and new pay structure. Thank you. Pay plans for our first responders. And we just haven't forgotten about you. I've got some of my best friends have been in the Orem Police and Orem Fire Department, and I appreciate what you do, and we need you. We have to have you. So anyway, I just want you to be assured we're working on it. And remind you, it's a competitive world, and there's other cities going through this similar problem with, with staffing their positions. So thank you. Could you make some comments about that, Stephen?
And I have— I may be able to respond fully. Quinn Monson's available for a call if we need to. He did have to, to leave. We did— we've been in this process for about 5 years of developing a panel of surveys, and it's of survey respondents. And so We update that panel pretty regularly. We did it last year with a survey. So when we update the panel, we survey every, every resident that we have an email address for and through our utility billing system. At the end of that survey, which we did last year, we give them an option to opt into future surveys. And we had 4,000— 3,997 emails. People opt in to say, I would like to continue to take surveys in the future. That's who we surveyed. And then the response rate was the 37% or 1,478. So we start with everybody. We go to a panel that's a representative sample. Part of the benefit of Y2 Analytics is they make sure that it's representative— male, female, age. They look at the demographics of the city. They make sure that those responses represent the entire demographic of the city.
But you don't go down to— there's Sam Lentz. I know how respond.
Correct. We, we don't ever see who responds.
I reply at least 25 times to each survey.
So yeah, we, yeah, we don't ever, we don't ever see that. That's, that's done through a consultant. They deliver the results.
Thank you.
Thanks, Mayor.
Councilmember Lentz.
Just a—
sorry, David, I apologize. Just a procedural question. So if we decided in December, for example, that, you know what, we do want to raise property taxes a little bit more to address kind of the compensation side of things, I don't think we necessarily have that lever to pull. We'd have to wait until next year because it's— property taxes are paid in November, right? So this is kind of our, our one shot each year to raise property taxes. So I, I think David brings up a good point. My concern is if this property tax increase has been advertised to our public the entire year as this is to hire 4 additional police officers. I wouldn't feel comfortable changing in that last week to, you know what, we're only going to hire 1 officer and we're going to turn the rest into raises. I think we can address a lot of the compensation pieces within our existing budget as, as we're working to do, but I wouldn't feel, you know, comfortable kind of changing the purpose of what we're funding here in, in the final hour.
Any other comments from the council? I'd just like to make a few comments. First of all, I want to thank everyone who has come out and who has spoken. It's not always easy or comfortable to speak in front of a crowd, but most of you seem like you're pretty enthusiastic and don't mind that, so I appreciate that. I would also like to say that for any police officer For any firefighter who is not on duty, I welcome them here at these meetings to visit with us, to speak to us, to be a part of this, and they're welcome anytime. With regards to the situation that we're facing, as probably many of you know, there are cities all up and down the Wasatch Front that are dealing with this right now. Salt Lake City is looking at putting forward a property tax increase of like about $37. Sandy City is putting one forward of about $31. Brigham City is putting one forward. And I can go all the way up and down the Wasatch Front, and I think there are like 30 different cities that are dealing with this same issue. It's not an easy issue. I have been working with Jamie and staff and the council on a ladder program for our officers, sergeants, lieutenants higher up in the fire department since last year, and I've been pushing hard for it since March. And this is something that I think is really needed. As far as the property tax increase goes, I support it. We cannot expect to have a good good fire or police departments if we're not willing to pay for them. To me, a dollar a month is worth the effort. I am totally aware of those that live off of a Social Security amount of, say, $950 a month, who's a widow living alone. And if you put together our property tax increase together with what Alpine School District just passed this last 2 weeks. It's a substantial amount of money. I would like to mention, just so everyone knows, is that there is a county tax abatement program for those who are over the age of 65 and have an income under the level of $37,000 a year. And I recommend that as many of you who fit in that category Use that tax abatement to try to lower the property tax burden that is there. But I also believe that the property tax— I totally agree with hiring 4 new policemen. At the same time, I agree with trying to giving our police and fire the leeway with the money to be able to use as they need to hang on to the people that we have.
Thank you.
What I'm seeing is that we have wonderful, qualified, highly valued police and fire that are leaving in droves out of our city, and I believe that we are not managing this correctly, and I believe that we need to make an effort to hang on to them. Kevin Wilkie is a good friend of mine. I've known him for years. He's one of the best firefighters I know. I'm very saddened to see him go. You can't replace his experience, his ability, his leadership, and there's no way, in my opinion, that we shouldn't have tried to hang on to him. And I see that with the police going down to Springville. I see that with the police going to Linden, police going up north. I mean, we have lost a lot. We're running a turnover rate of around 20%, 25% a year. We can't sustain that because our level of experience and expertise goes too low, and it creates a real problem because then we're getting people out on the street in a situation where they should have more experience and they don't. So I'm very, very concerned. This has been a major concern of mine for the last year. We put in a STEP program last year. I had hoped that we had moved forward with the second part of it. The end of last year, that didn't happen. I asked for that to occur in March and April, did not happen. I believe we're making moves towards it, and I'm hoping it's going to happen here pretty quick. Again, one of our core responses— responsibilities as A mayor, a city council, city management, is the protection of our citizens through our police and fire. That is one of our major core responsibilities. And that needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed quickly, and we need to work hard to hang on to our officers and to build our force up to a force that is one of— has expertise, has ability, and has pride in what they're doing, and that they know that we value them. Now, this is a problem all cities are facing right now. I might mention that most of your tech companies are facing the exact same problem. I watched the Woodburys when they're building one of their new apartment complexes down at the mall have to put up a fence around the complex so that other contractors would not come in and offer the employees more money and steal them. So we have this issue all over, but it's an issue we need to address for the safety of our citizens. It's important. We need to act on it now. It's time to move forward with it. So please know that I'm behind that, and I want to work hard to get that done.
Thank you.
as soon as possible. We have a budget that has grown every year. Our reserves have grown every year. Prioritization can be done, and we can actually fund the things that are needed to be funded through the resources that we have. So thank you very much. I would like to announce that the 2019-20 physical year budget and the proposed new tax rate will be on the agenda for approval by— at the City Council meeting a week from today, August 27th, 2019. So all of you are welcome to come, but this is the public hearing for the Truth in Taxation. And with that, I will ask for a motion to adjourn.
So moved.
Is there a second?
Second.
Okay, all in favor please say aye.
Aye.
I would like to mention before we finish, Tom MacDonald was not able to be here and let us know that he would be absent. So thank you very much for everyone coming.
City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.1) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings CITY OF OREM SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING 56 North State Street Orem, Utah August 20, 2019 6:00 P.M. SPECIAL SESSION – COUNCIL CHAMBERS CONDUCTING Mayor Richard F. Brunst ELECTED OFFICIALS Debby Lauret, Sam Lentz, Mark Seastrand, David Spencer, and Brent Sumner APPOINTED STAFF Brenn Bybee, Assistant City Manager; Steven Downs, Deputy City Manager; Greg Stephens, City Attorney; Scott Gurney, Fire Chief; Gary Giles, Police Chief; Charlene Crozier, Library Director; Chris Tschirki, Public Works Director; Brandon Nelson, Finance Division Manager; Karl Hirst, Recreation Director Ryan Clark, Development Services Director; Richard Manning, Administrative Services Director; Pete Wolfley, Communications Specialist and JoD’Ann Bates, City Recorder EXCUSED Tom Macdonald CALL TO ORDER INVOCATION / INSPIRATIONAL THOUGHT Debby Lauret PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Ryan Clark SCHEDULED ITEMS PUBLIC HEARNG Truth and Taxation Mr. Nelson stated when the City Council adopted the Fiscal Year 2019-2020 Tentative budget the Council expressed the desire to consider a property tax increase for the sole purpose of hiring four additional police officers. When a municipality considers a property tax increase a process known as "Truth in Taxation" is followed. The County sets a time and date for a public hearing that will not conflict with a property tax public hearing for any other entity. Mr. Nelson reviewed past and present property taxes and rates related to property taxes. He continued to review the history of the number of officers and total calls for service. City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.2) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings Mr. Monson of Y2 Analytics stated a survey was conducted with a panel of Orem City residents and they received just fewer than 4,000 responses to this survey. The question was written to be as impartial as possible regarding a tax increase. He reviewed the questions on the survey regarding the increase of property taxes and stated there was an overall response of support to all options that were proposed. He continued to review the responses both for and against and comments that were made. He concluded by stating the survey showed Orem residents were happy with the proposal and supported the increase even more when knowing the funds would be applied specifically to the police department. Mr. Nelson continued to explain how the property tax increase compares to other cities and the overall impact on the average home in Orem. He concluded to state the City will hold a final budget hearing and approval on August 27, 2019. Mr. Lentz asked for clarification on the number of increased calls of service in 2018. Chief Giles responded he does not know the exact reason for the jump in calls. He suggested that in 2017 the department was trying to be more pro-active in trying to cut down on crime so there was a dip in calls. In 2018 there were several factors that went into play, one being they did not have a full Neighborhood Preservation Unit (NPU). They have since gained a full NPU and changed the way they have started calls. Mr. Sumner inquired as to when the 311 line became effective. Mr. Davidson stated it was in place in August of 2018. Chief Giles indicated the police had in the past dealt with the calls that is now being rerouted through the City 311 line but feels it didn’t take away from the calls the police were responding to, he feels they are still responding to the same amount of calls. Mr. Davidson indicated there are about 70 thousand calls received by the 311 system since inception. Mayor Brunst opened the public hearing at 6:25 p.m. Judith Williamson stated she has lived in the community for 55 years and is a retired nurse. She is aware of the need for experienced staff. She lives in the community and has been made aware of the fact that many of the Orem fire fighters have gone or are considering going to other communities and they city now has staff coming in with no experience. The city needs experienced staff. Guy Gastman stated he retired from the Orem City Police Department 4 years ago after 37 years of service and is in favor of the tax increase. He has seen the departments both police and fire on a downward spiral. When he was hired he was 1 of 200 applicants for his position and now you can’t get applicants to come to Orem. It took him 9 years to test for Sargent and now it only takes about 11/2 years for advancement. Not only are officers leaving, they are losing experience. Orem is getting less experienced employees both in police and fire services. Spencer Rands resident of Orem stated he is against the property tax but in favor of giving more funds to fire and police. He feels there has been some mis-prioritization of funds over the years. Overall Police and Fire rank 5th and 6th in receiving funds from the 2019/2020 budget. He continued to review language from the budget regarding the 4 proposed officers and stated he feels they need to reprioritize the city funds and not do a tax increase. (Spencer provided a handout to the Council) City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.3) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings Melissa Wilson moved to Orem 18 years ago from Chicago and has 6 young children. She stated she was in favor of the tax increase but is interested to see what else can be done with the budget. She loves the safety Orem provides but she fears this is all about to change. The city has already seen a mass exodus of first responders and she sees this as detrimental. The departments are understaffed and the first responders are overworked. They are the ones working hardest to keep the residents safe and unless the pay raises are matched the new hires will also leave Orem and the cycle will start over again. First responders are heavily involved with the community and their commitment to our city should be, in turn, returned with higher wages, better hours and continued benefits. Keeping the city safe isn’t just about first responders; it’s about having excellent first responders. Dave Young an Orem resident is against the tax increase. Every tax increase is just a pathway that never ends because there is never enough money. He voiced his concern that there was not any notice for this meeting. He indicated his property tax has increased over the years and the mill rates shouldn’t change. It is a management and budgeting issue and feels some employees are getting paid more than necessary. He reviewed some of the current budget items. He feels the city needs to work with the resources they have. Phil Murphy stated he appreciated and respects the City Council and City Managements willingness to listen to resident’s opinions. The city has grown dramatically since he started with the police department. Orem is known for being very service orientated and he is alarmed that they are only talking about 4 new officers. They are not talking about additional fire staff, and dispatchers, they need more in every one of those areas. He is glad to see the city is finally making a tax increase for the purpose of police officers. He feels the amount of officers has not changed, they have added resource officers and other positions but the number of responding officers is still the same. The core element of patrol officers has not changed and that is alarming. They need to also look at other budget opportunities because Orem Police Department needs a lot more. David Busath indicated he is opposed to the tax increase but is in favor of more resources going to police and fire officers. He inquired if the tax increase can be tied exclusively for a purpose and restricted for that use, and if not it would be a ruse and that annoys him. He feels there is enough income from high rises apartment that have been built to provide the extra infrastructure needed, if not he feels there should be more impact fees paid by them since they are the main source of the need for more police officers. Mark Tippets stated he is opposed to the tax increase, but not opposed to finding ways to help the police department. He would like to see this problem get addresses thoroughly and completely. He believes that 4 additional police officers are just a bandage for what Orem really needs. He has discovered that high density housing apartment complexes are assessed at the same rate as a regular residential home. That tax rate is controlled by the state and he feels as a city and as residents they need to get ahold of the state and tell them that high density housing needs to be assessed as a business tax. He feels that would double the amount normally received from those entities. He stated they need to come together as a city and find ways to assess this problem. The safety of the residents is the number one concern and when the city does its budget they need to find the funds to ensure that safety. He feels they are holding the police hostage for a tax increase. City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.4) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings Emily Vance is against the tax increase due to it is only being allocated for the Police Department when there are other departments that also need funds. Even with the additional 4 officers, they continue to be behind in the number of officers and firefighters compared to the amount of those that are leaving, there is nothing keeping them here. Her husband is a police officer for the City of Orem and there have been times when there are only 4-5 officers on patrol at one time to cover the entire city. She feels this is a liability to the city and the officers. Lisa Wilkey stated her son worked for Orem for 11 years and is now going elsewhere. She stated the firefighters were told they could not come and voice their concerns while they are on duty. She feels they are being bullied. Barbara Petty has lived in Orem for 25 years and has watched the quality of life go downhill because of improper representation. She stated she lives on a fixed income, have increasing medical bills which comes with age and she speaks for a lot of her friends in the same situation. She is Vice Chairman of her Legislative District and when she hears talk of a survey that indicates Orem residents are happy she feels it is a false survey. She stated the public was not notified of this meeting and it is the cities responsibility to notify its residents of a Truth and Taxation hearing. She feels this is a mismanagement of funds and she feels the City has let the Police and Fire Departments go underfunded, they are more important to the residents than the City Council. She concluded, the tax increase is a sloppy way of managing government, and they should be readjusting the way the city spends their money. Martin Wright stated that sometimes you have to pay for what you get; everything in life is not free. Having great parks, good roads, fire and police is not free. He stated he feels they pay nothing for what they have in the City of Orem in comparison to other cities in and outside Utah. They are down more that the four they are working to get, and there is no way the city is able to replace all the positions at one time. He feels there are funds the city can use to try and keep the current employees and feels there is nothing wrong with a tax increase as long as it is used correctly. They need to look for a solution and not just blame others. James Vance stated he came to Orem 14 years ago and it was the place to be for most officers, in all of Utah County it was the desired end location for their career. Now he has people all the time telling him he should leave but he is staying because he loves the city. It’s time to fix the mess ups that have happened since the recession. The city needs to increase or reallocate the funds because they don’t feel the cities support anymore. His crew consists of 2 officers with 14 years; everyone else has less than 3 years or less of experience. David Halliday a resident is in favor of the tax increase. Over the past six months he has had the opportunity to talk with residents, both Chief Gurney and Chief Giles. They have overworked, understaffed employees and if it takes just $12 a year for 4-5 new officers it is completely worth it. There are a lot of great ideas on how the budget can be adjusted and feels that some increases should be justified and would like to see reallocation to departments that are growing. Miriam Murphy indicated that when she heard police and fire employees were told they could not attend the meeting she knew she needed to say something. She accused the City Council and City Manager of threating those officers and fire fighters and those in uniform to not attend the meeting and show their support. They are here to protect the residents. City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.5) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings Murray Low stated he is against the tax increase and feels the problem is both funds and moral and has not seen a long term plan to address those two issues. He asked the Council to create a plan to allocate more funds for police and fire and not the administration, and a plan to address the moral issue. Carley Skougard stated she is in favor of the tax increase. She has worked with law enforcement throughout Utah County as a child protection worker and out of all the agencies in Utah County there was only one she wanted her husband to work for, and that was the Orem Police Department. He was able to make a lateral move from Ogden and is employed by the Orem Police Department. As a resident and mother she wants officers with experience when she needs them. The city needs to change, and they need to keep their officers that are tenured, and bring on lateral transfers. John Zumbrennon has lived in Orem for 28 years. He feels a change in the mill levy is not an appropriate way to solve this problem. He feels if they can’t make a budget work with 12-13% increases, there is a real problem. He feels there needs to be a sharpening of the pencil in some areas, and apply funds in areas that are needed. He opposes the mill levy change and feels prior budgets have worked in the past and should be able to continue to work with better allocation. Hugh Black stated he is neutral on the tax increase. He feels if they can pay the maximum rate for officers with the increase then he is in favor. If they cannot solve the issues with the increased budget it is not worth the tax increase. He also feels by increasing the pay, it will improve the moral and officers will stay. Hearing no further comments, Mayor Brunst closed the public hearing at 7:15 p.m. and brought the item back to the City Council for further discussion. Mrs. Lauret stated she appreciated the comments that were made and assured the residents the Council and Administration was working on the issues and felt that the new officers will help. They are always willing to look at other options that will help. She appreciates the great employees the city has and wants them to always feel free to come and voice their opinions without repercussions. Mr. Seastrand thanked those in attendance and stated he appreciated their comments. He indicated he wanted the residents to know that just because this meeting is for the tax increase for new officers this is not the only thing that is being done in order to solve these issues. The City Council and Administration have been working on wage increases for police and fire and they have been re-prioritizing and rearrange the budget to enable them to address many issues. There were a number of past years when there were no raises for any employee and they have been working on making up for those years of no increases. As a Council they have to look at all the revenue sources and all the needs of the city and find a balance. The purpose of this tax increase is to add four more officers which will help to increase moral and reduce workload. The process they looked at was to maximize what they could with existing funds, to increase the wages, take care of the benefits, to get equipment that the employees need to effectively operate in a safe and controlled manner and to do this to the best of their ability with the budget. The City is also looking forward knowing they need an additional fire station and they continue to discuss how they will afford the station and the fire crew to fill that new station. He continued that in that process they can’t ignore other areas of the city. The overall picture is what they City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.6) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings have been looking at which includes all areas of the city and the needs of those areas. He concluded he feels Orem has a great Fire Chief and Police Chief, they appreciate all the work they do and all the work that those do under them. The purpose of the property tax is to increase the number of officers, to help decrease the workload and he wants residents to be reassured the process will continue, and they will continue to address other issues. Mr. Lentz stated there were a few things he would like to address. He agrees with needing a long term strategic plan as to where they are going and how they are to get there. This will take time and they need to know how that will be accomplished. He voiced his frustration at that people feel they need to point fingers and blame specific individuals instead of staying on track with solving the problem at hand. It is the responsibility of the City Council to set and approve the city budget and by blaming specific individual it detracts from solving the main issue. He suggested they stay focused on the issues of properly compensating public safety employees and find a way to hire and retain employees enough to stay proactive. The City Council needs to act proactively to provide a plan where they want to be in the next 3-4 years. He inquired as to the process of notification for the meeting. Mr. Davidson responded that the County Clerk is part of the tentative tax notice that goes to each resident. A property owner in July received a notice from the County Clerk with property tax information which included information of each community within Utah County, and when a Truth and Taxation hearing would be scheduled, with the date, location and time. That is one of two required notices; the second is a notice in the newspaper. We have also made the information available on the city website, the state public noticing website, several social media notification, and the recent city newsletter. They have been consistent with state law on noticing this meeting and feels the city has gone above those requirements for notification of the residents for this Truth and Taxation hearing. Mr. Lentz continued to inquire as to funds left over at the end of the fiscal year. Mr. Nelson responded excess funds do not stay with the departments. At the end of the fiscal year excess funds are placed in the reserve fund which is regulated by state law as to the amount the city can retain in that fund. Any further excess is then placed in a capital improvement fund which is later used for capital projects. Mr. Lentz voiced his concern regarding statements made of staff being asked not to attend the meeting. Mr. Davidson responded by stating he did have a conversation with Chief Gurney relative to the fire department. All the fire department employees are assigned to a specific geographic area in the city for response purposes. His direction, given to Chief Gurney earlier that day was consistent with whatever they do while they are on shift; they need to stay within their assigned shift area. If fire fighters are at the City Center and they have a response in southwest Orem, Lindon or Vineyard where they have responsibilities, it’s important they stay within their geographic jurisdiction to meet the needs of our residents. For those that are on duty during this meeting his direction to Chief Gurney was those employees stay within their designated service areas. Employees that are interested in attending and are not on duty they were more than welcome to attend. Mr. Lentz continued to state it is his understanding that the mill levy may change, but the tax will not change. Mr. Nelson stated Mr. Lentz was correct. The tax assessment is done by the county and they control that valuation. Mr. Lentz asked Mr. Davidson to address some of the things they are working on to help solve some of the other issues. Mr. Davidson responded they have been having this conversation through the budget process and recognized their number one priority was to increase staffing and increase the number of police officers. At the same time beginning last year they initiated a career ladder program for the Fire and Police and Public Works Departments. Since that time City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.7) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings the market continues to be very competitive. The feedback received by the residents and employees to the Council was we need to add to the program. They have been working on the career program with Chief Giles and Chief Gurney, and in the last 4 weeks and they have developed a path they have agreed upon based on an employee achieving certain certifications, skill sets and years of service; allowing them to advance and receive every few years a bump above and beyond the standard merit increase. There is obviously a cost to this program which has been costed out what they believe, would cost the city which for the next 3 fiscal years to be approximately $650 thousand dollars with approximately $340 thousand dollars on the front end of the program. The city does not have that amount in this year’s budget in ongoing available revenue, so they have been looking at what they can do within the existing budget to work that $340 thousand into the operating budget for this fiscal year. The next two fiscal years the plan is to absorb that cost and hope they have growth in the operating budget in order to cover those costs. This program is something employees would be eligible for in 3 year increments, they believe they can get through the first of the bumps in the next 3 years. They have confidence they can address current employees, by providing them an increase in salary in the next 3 years. Mr. Lentz concluded he has had the opportunity to sit down with each department director and it helped him understand the people, programs and services behind the budgets that are proposed. The budget money does not come out of thin air and it requires some painful choices. Asking for a property tax comes due to a need for additional police officers. They also have a need for additional fire fighters and we have to understand, it comes with a cost. Mr. Spencer stated his opinion is they need to get it right the first time. Right now he does not favor the property tax increase. He feels the funds should be for fire and police, allowing the chiefs to use the funds in a way they feel necessary. He questioned if it was better to have someone leave or use the funds to keep the ones they have? He likes the step program and feels they have done a great job in creating a solution. He inquired as to the average years of service in the Police Department. Chief Giles indicated he does not have the current average but the last 6 officers they have hired are new out of the academy. They have a one year probationary period due to the ongoing training needed. Most get through the probationary period and move onto succeed. Mr. Spencer thanked those that attended and shared their comments with the Council. Mr. Sumner thanked those residents and employees that participated in the meeting and the comments that were shared. Several years ago they adopted the pay as you go type of budgeting due to the fall of the economy. He stated they have been discussing this issue and is an ongoing process. He feels very disappointed in those comments made that found fault but did not have any solutions and encouraged residents to talk to the City Council. He feels Orem is the best place to be employed and they are working on new pay structures and plans. He wanted to ensure them they have not been forgotten and to be assured the City Council is working on the issues. He asked Mr. Downs to explain the survey. Mr. Downs reviewed how the survey is produced and the process that continues throughout the city. Mayor Brunst thanked everyone that attended, commented and participated in the meeting. He wanted to state that for any police officer and fire fighter that is not on duty he welcomes them to these meetings. He stated there are several cities in Utah County and Salt Lake County that is going through the same issues and possible tax increases. He has been working with the Administration and Council on these issues and he supports the increase. They cannot expect to have good things without having to pay for them. He is aware of those that live with a fixed income, and knows with the recent increase to the Alpine School District tax increase it is a City Council Minutes – August 20, 2019 (p.8) A complete video of the meeting can be found at www.orem.org/meetings higher amount. He indicated the County does have a property tax abatement program for those that are over the age of 65 and have an income under the level of $37 thousand dollars a year that can help with their property taxes. He sees several very qualified and experienced police and fire employees that are leaving and the less experienced employees coming in and acknowledges residents’ concerns. One of the core responsibilities as a Mayor, City Council and city management is the protection of our residents through our police and fire. Municipalities are not the only ones in this situation, there are private companies that have to deal with the same issues. It is important and it is time to move forward, work hard and prioritize their funds and to get it done as soon as possible. Mayor Brunst concluded by making the announcement that the 2019/2020 fiscal year budget and the proposed new tax rate will be on the agenda for approval at the City Council meeting, August 27, 2019. ADJOURN Mr. Spencer moved to adjourn the meeting. Mr. Lentz seconded the motion. Those voting aye: Richard F. Brunst, Debby Lauret, Sam Lentz, Mark Seastrand, David Spencer, and Brent Sumner. The motion passed. The meeting adjourned at 8:01 p.m. JoD’Ann Bates, City Recorder Approved: August 27, 2019