City Council · 2026-07-28

Like to welcome you to our work session today of the Orem City Council. We have— is everybody zooming in? Is everybody on? We have council. Okay, so. We have council members. Neil Stein, all, um, joining us virtually. And we welcome them, and we welcome you all here personally. So we'll go ahead and start with our first item. It's the Utah County Major Crimes Update, 5-minute presentation, 5-minute Q&A. And our presenters are, are Police Chief BJ Robinson and Lieutenant Justin Gordon. UCMC field director. Welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor and Council. Um, Justin Gordon works for the Sheriff's Office, and he's the field director for Utah County Major Crimes Task Force. Uh, Lieutenant Phil Anderson is an Orem lieutenant. He's the director of our task force. He's on vacation, or he would be sitting here talking to you today. So, um, second channel to that. Just want to kind of educate and talk to you about our task force. It's been on for over 2 decades. Our task force, the fiduciary of the task force has been Othram for a majority of that time, just over 2 decades. And so we work a lot with Brandon and finance and things like that to, you know, make the task force run. Yeah, just this slide is just, you know, our Logo and badge for our task force that shows the agencies from Utah County, the federal partners that are part of our task force. And so some agencies don't have any officers that participate in it. Some of the larger agencies like us, Provo, American Fork County have multiple officers and supervisors that provide support to the task force. So what does the task force do? Uh, their primary responsibility is, uh, drug trafficking organizations and, uh, drug enforcement, uh, around, you know, that affects our county and cities. Um, gang enhancement, gang enforcement, uh, when needed, and then any type of major crime or major incident that occurs where a police agency needs extra manpower, or I as a chief say, hey, we need some extra manpower in this type of investigation. Then I would contact either Justin or Phil and request them to come and help. And so that's our county on a map and just kind of shows a few of the numbers associated with our partners, kind of the makeup of what it is. We are grant funded. There is a state grant, that's a CCJJ grant, and then a federal HIDTA grant, High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area. And we are one of how many in Utah? I want to say 3 or 4 different HIDA agencies in Utah. And then the city assessment. So each year the city's assessed kind of a— let's say a fee just to keep the lights on type of a thing that helps go for overtime, training, equipment, things like that. And that's population-based. And that goes up incrementally every, every so often. Um, and so when I was a younger cop, um, and was a sergeant, I was assigned to the task force in the early 2000s into 2010. Uh, the big drug, uh, that was causing our community's problems was meth. And then fast forward to when I was the director in Phil's spot in '27 to 2019, it was heroin. Fast forward to the last several years, and it's now fentanyl. And so this just shows and highlights some of the fentanyl seizures year to date from 2025 until current. This is what's coming into our community. Just, you know, we live in a wonderful place, in a wonderful county. We have major drug problems and major drug trafficking organizations that operate in our state and in our county. And so It's not just your local dealer that you may envision or may see on, on a street corner, but these are organizations that are operating in our communities that part of our task force is, is, is focused on. They also focus on, you know, the neighborhood problems, but their primary goal is to disrupt major drug trafficking organizations. And so those are some, just some numbers to throw at you to kind of not shock and awe, but to realize the good work that they're doing on a continual basis. Um, trying to think of where else to go with some of the— mostly I wanted to answer any questions that you may have regarding the task force or what they do. Um, but, uh, One of the things that I appreciate about the task force is when we have, like, a— I would say either a homicide or a, uh, um, not more than a missing person, but something that where time is of the essence, where we need to find a suspect. Um, you know, go back to the, the slide before, they bring 38 detectives to bear. like that, and they are all highly trained and highly efficient at surveillance, following people, most, for the most part, undetected, and being able to bring a lot of manpower to bear on an incident and support. And I've seen that time and time again in our own agency in Orem and throughout the county of where the task force comes to as a force multiplier.

Yep.

To an agency to help with that investigation. And that's one of the other beauties that I appreciate about our task force. appreciate about our county, of being a chief in this county, is the cooperation that we enjoy amongst other agencies to help one another out. And I think the— our task force has operated for decades under that same understanding, that team effort, and it continues on. And so, any questions or anything that you would want to add? He's here to help and also answer the questions that I don't know.

Any questions?

Um, just curious that, I mean, the amount of seizures is amazing. Do we have any kind of a, I mean, a sense of how much of that is getting through that we're not— we're unaware of, or that It is just sneaking through somehow. Those are— I mean, that just blows me away. Yeah. So that dollar amount. Not only the dollar amount, but that in 2025, that is 2 million, 2.5 million pills of fentanyl. That's how we generally see the fentanyl is in pill form. They make it look like other pills. But yeah, we're not getting it all. Our goal is to, but we aren't. We get into these organizations and we, we do a takedown after our investigation. We shut these organizations down for just a few weeks and then they send up more people, more groups. They're, they're cartel-related for the most part. That's where they're getting their supplies from. They're, they're here and that's who we're after. But yeah, we're Um, we're not getting it all, but we're trying our best. Uh, year to date this year, we've had 30 federal indictments just from our investigations, which is, is huge. Um, that's guys that will— guys and gals that will take minimum mandatory sentences in the federal system for distributing drugs around Utah County.

By comparison, when I was there maybe 10 years ago and thought we were doing a job, we were happy if we got double digits of federal indictments in a calendar year. And so just the, the high level of work that they're doing, uh, for the feds to, to take on a prosecution. Everything needs to be buttoned up and, uh, i's dotted, t's crossed at the utmost. And, uh, they're, they're performing at that level.

Any, any other questions? Yes.

So I toured the, um, can't remember what it's called. Up there by the National Guard, the federal, um, by the point of the mountain.

Yeah.

Uh, are you talking about the NSA facility? NSA?

Yeah, on your other slide you had their name at the bottom, right?

HSI?

Utah National Guard counter.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Um, do you interface with them much?

Yeah, we have 2 National Guard counterdrug Um, analysts. Yeah, they're assigned to our task force full-time. It bounces back between 1 and 2. If they get down numbers, they have to pull one, but right now we have 2, and they're doing behind-the-scenes work, uh, as we, you know, come up with suspect names, plates, addresses. They're, they're figuring out stuff for us to tie to this investigation.

And how many— it So I'm trying to figure out county. Most of what you do is you're in the county. So if things spill over to other—

So we—

good question.

We are working to make Utah County a better place. However, if people are dealing drugs here, we will chase them wherever they reside. We spend a lot of time outside our county, but we, we look for the ties to our county to keep them out of here.

And can I just say, We're not Happy Valley. We are, we're happy here, but there's stuff going on here.

Absolutely.

And we appreciate what you're doing.

Thank you.

So it sounds like you rotate officers through. How does that— is it— how does that all—

It'd be different from agency to agency. Here in Orem, uh, we usually rotate them around every 3 to 5 years based upon need and how they're performing, what needs we have back at the At the home agency, maybe they promote out of that. Maybe it's just their time. There's there's a there's a lot of different philosophies on that. It does take time. It's a very specialized assignment down there, and so you need to leave them in there marinating for a while till they get good at it. And so you don't want to pull them out just as they're starting to get good and getting traction, and then pull them out. And so there's there's kind of a sweet spot, and sometimes that depends. Sometimes they benefit from timing and needs and they're in there for 4 or 5 years and sometimes not so much. But it does vary from agency to agency on how they choose to rotate officers through.

So is that how it works?

We have like 30, you said 38 detectives. Are they all 38 detectives that are full-time with the UCMC, but Orem sends X number and they're full-time over there, then they don't necessarily work here?

So Orem, we have the field director, the lieutenant, we have 2 sergeants, and then we have 3 detectives. that are assigned there full-time. And so over the years, as we used to have 4, and I want to say that was 2009, we used to have 4 detectives, but just manpower and restructuring. Sometimes when we're down on patrol, we don't like to pull them back from task force to come back to patrol, but if things got to bare bones, then we have to staff patrol. So. That would be a reason why.

Thank you.

Thank you for your service, and thank you for your work on this.

Appreciate your support with this program. I always like to give a shout out to Brandon because, uh, he helps us, uh, quite a bit keeping our financials in order and helping us with things. And so we try to make that lift as easy as possible, but it is a lift nonetheless. Uh, so we appreciate Orem being the fiduciary of the task force. And it very much is a benefit, uh, to the task force. Thank you, guys.

Thank you. The next item on the agenda is a presentation by Taggart Bowen, our city engineer. Capital construction project update, 20-minute presentation, 10-minute— there's Taggart. Hello, Taggart.

Hi.

This passes on. I don't know if I have enough ready.

There.

All right, I've been asked to provide a presentation for CIP projects— stands for Capital Improvement Projects— and I thought it'd be good to have this map just as a reference and then hit it later and peruse through it, or I'll look at it while I'm talking. And up on the screen here showing all the projects. These aren't all construction projects going on right now, but everything that we're either working on coming up in the future or currently under construction. Got them numbered there. Like, uh, for example, number 1, look in the map on the left side there near 8th North, points over to the The blue color, which is a project Lance Excavation's working on, and this is to provide better clarity on the map. It's not pointing to every blue, but if you look at the different blue areas there in the middle, those are also Lance. Number 6 points to a project that Silver Spur's working on. You can see other green areas there in the middle. That's part of our sewer project, so. Got a lot going on. It'd be really hard in this short time I have to go through every project and talk about everything we're doing, but there is a lot going on. Coordinate. And you can see there the numbering, number 1 through 12 in construction, 13 through 18 are projects that have been completed this year, 19 through 28 are currently in the bid award process where we're working with contractors to either get them started on construction this year, or they've just been advertised and we're looking at the proposals and bids received. 29 through 40 are upcoming future projects that we're in our design process with our team working hard on those upcoming design projects. And then 41— in the 40s is the MAG UDOT projects that are either Coming up, or most of those are under construction, the big road widening type projects on mostly UDOT corridors.

And Mayor, as Taggart said, this is, as you can see, there's so much going on that they're doing. We don't have a lot of time to get into detail of each one. This is intended to be an overview, give you a flavor, but if there are certain projects that you would like more information on, We can come back and get into more detail on those projects.

I wanted to just go over a little bit quickly what a CIP project entails. A lot of times we just see the construction going on, we see the roads being paved, but there's a lot of planning that goes on and Part of that, I just want to go through quickly the phases of a capital improvement project. In the beginning, we have our pre-bid phase, which would be our staff's meeting with whoever has requested the project, whether it's Public Works, Fire, Police, or any other departments in Orem that have a need. We're meeting with them, trying to understand the scope of the project. We come up with a concept, put together a cost estimate, and then work closely with them to start And preparing, fine-tuning what that project entails. Look at right-of-way. We have our city surveyor who will look at impacts to right-of-way, whether we need to purchase right-of-way, get easements. Our designers will work with any stakeholders, whether that's different agencies, property owners, civil works. And then that's the specifications. As we create the final plan, stamp those specifications together outlining what we'll be bidding for the project, and we'll advertise it. It could be a proposal or a bid award. We put that through our online bidding process on Bonfire, the website we use. And then after we receive bids, we review those, we look at references, we make sure the bids are— quantities are accurate. We compare them with We look at references. We put together contract agreements, make sure legal's good with that. We'll set up pre-construction meetings and make sure to look at submittals. We get into the construction phase where kind of all-encompassing for every one of these items is project management, where we have a great team that we've got our design engineers that have been involved with planning from the very beginning, and then the construction engineers will come in with their experience and team up to manage the project, and they do a great job making sure following our city standards. They'll provide regular inspections, making sure plans and standards are— all our standards are being met. And then in the completion part, they'll verify that those items have been completed. And then we have our payment performance bonds, making sure to Have our warranty in there as well. I just wanted to highlight a few projects. We've got some pictures. If Dave Spencer were here, he would love this one. This is 950 North.

If you can see that one for 4 years. That was just me before years.

It's been years in the making. This is a picture of looking West on 950 North, Lance putting the waterline in. And then this is in the same place. You can see that wooden fence on the left. So same location. There's the— you can see the waterline patch there. And then this is BHI, who we hired to do the roads project after Lance did their project, doing the reconstruct. There's the paving. It's another project that's been going on on— I don't know the number of it on there— Center Street, 12th West, and then also 8th North, 12th West. They've done a great job with making it look better. There's a picture of what it used to look like. There's a grading of that area. This is right off of 12th West and Center Street.

It's nice.

What it looks like now. It looks so good now. I, I hope it stays like that because it's, it's hard to keep, you know, the weeds out of that type of rock, but it looks really good.

It's your better oxen rack.

We're on it.

You're on it.

It's really good. So this is just south of there, what it used to look like. That's them putting more topsoil in. Looks like now. This is the fire training facility down there. Johnson property, 1600 West, was a farm, farm field. Got the building going up, the 2 fire burn buildings in the background. There's the curb and gutter going in. Kind of what it looks like now. And then there's the fence and landscaping. That's been a great, great project. This is a project done by Ecker. You can see on the plan, I believe it's number 18 that they put in the storm drain line for us. This serves as a storm drain and also as a flush line for the well. And this is just a picture looking over. HDP line under the canal pipes. And that's what it looks like now. This is our concrete project. It was done earlier this year. They installed a speed table on 16th South. So that's what it looked like before. That's them during the project. And then that's what it looks like now. ADA ramp. This project's currently going on. It's Becker Construction. This is a water line just off of 1700 South and State Street. This is a picture of them installing storm drain line through the commercial business. I believe it's State down there. This is just off of about 18th South and State Street looking east. You can see that brick building there, and that's what it looks like now. So they did a really good job paving that. Striping's back. You can see under that car, the panel there is that— It's all paved. This is a project down at Lakeside Sports Park. It's going on right now. And that's what it looks like. See, from the curb and gutter alignment, it's moved to the east. So that lines up with the intersection to the south. This project, you're familiar with this, is Fort South, Fort West. Pump station well house, which has been ongoing for years, and it's scheduled to be completed, I believe, next year. Exergar is bid process.

Just got them back.

Just got bids. So that one's coming up, future project. This one is just— see the fence going up out here? It's just starting. I just saw the trees coming down.

I was sad. There's a little melancholy watching them go down. I'll be honest with you. Oh, but I'll trade that for the fence.

I'll get over it.

We'll replace them 1.5 to 1, so we'll put back in more than we take down.

That's just a site plan of the, you know, what That will look like. And we're working with Avenue Consultants on the center street widening project between Geneva and I-15, and that we've been working on that for a while with them. That's MAG project. And that's it for the update.

Edgar, would you— I know you said this already, but would you reorient us on what the different colors mean in the map?

Yes. So if you look at the map, like the yellow color, they're just related to different projects. Yellow's for micro, so you'd have to find the number that points to. Like if you look down at, um, on the right side of the map, number 10 points to that yellow. They're on 8th South on the very Side. Yep. And then look here on, on the list, number 10 is going to be micro. So anything yellow in there would be related to that micro.

Okay, so these colors on this map are related to different types of street maintenance.

Yeah, the green are related to sewer, then purple for storm drain, blue for water.

I need to— Thank Taggart for putting this together. As you can see, there's a tremendous amount of work going on in the city, not just projects that have recently been done, but we're in the process of doing and in the process of designing and bidding. The vast majority of the projects that we do in the city are done in-house by Taggart. Taggart, in effect, runs probably one of the best engineering firms in the state. We design these projects. We work with Public Works and Reed and his group on their needs. We take the— we coordinate with them. We look at the projects. We design them in-house. We bid them out. We hire a contractor. And we manage the construction project. All in-house. A lot of communities don't do that. The advantage that that gives us is we're very nimble, and if we get in the middle of a project and a different priority rises to the surface, we can quickly pivot. We, we don't have— I don't ever have a conversation with Taggart about, well, Gary, that's a change order. That we're going to charge. Because we're doing it in-house, and it gives us a lot of flexibility. It also saves us money in the long run. A lot of communities, all they're doing are managing contracts. Believe it or not, some construction companies, all they have is somebody— they'll have a person on staff who does nothing but look for change orders. So we're able to, since we know the project, our engineers will be working closely with the police department on theirs. So we do this across the board. It's really— I, I know I'm going on and on, but too bad you have to listen to this because this is helpful. Helpful because Taggart leads truly one of the best engineering firms in the state. And we do this in-house, and it's a great benefit to the city and to the taxpayer.

Top-quality work.

Yes.

At a very comparatively inexpensive cost.

Municipal prices.

And there's usually not the right hand not knowing what the left hand's doing because—

Same hand.

I got to give a shout out to our team. If you, if you don't know who's in the engineering division, go Meet them, get to know them. We've got a great group of— work hard, they do the behind the scenes, and they, they're awesome to work with. So, you don't know them, go meet them and get to know them.

Really, the conversation will last all like 3 minutes because they're really talkative.

They got somewhere to be.

That's it.

Point, and to taggart, in terms of teamwork.

Yeah, one other picture too I want to show.

That's questions about.

Is that Ryan?

That guy.

This is where Ryan came from.

That's Lane Gray is the focus.

Lane Gray.

Not even—

That was taken yesterday.

And this is when Ryan actually worked.

I grew up that day.

Actually, didn't even ask.

So, uh, on one of those pictures, we talked about 950 North, and there were multiple pictures there because there were multiple, uh, kind of teamwork working together, left hand and right hand needing to know and coordinate because something could start out as a streets project and then also turn into a water project and a storm drain project and a sidewalk and trail and And landscaping project very quickly and easily.

So this one right here, Brent.

So if, if each of these services and infrastructure subjects were disparate, then yeah, there would be conflicts and we would run into the possibility of, you know, redoing a water line one, one month, and then the next month realize we need to go back and do some more and cut up the road all over again. So What you're saying, Brent, is exactly why that took a little longer, is we had to coordinate all of those improvements and funding for the large water tank project, uh, was, was needed. So we had to wait until we had enough funds to do that. So we're glad we got it. So what you're saying, Reed, is we should go tell that to Commissioner-elect Dave Spencer? Good lesson.

Mayor, I also point out this is the, uh, plan, part of the plan for the police station, uh, the fence around it. If you can just see all of the comments and how complicated you think, oh, we're just going to put in a fence. It's not that simple. There's so much work that goes on behind the scenes, and so that the public knows We treat ourselves just like a developer who would come in and develop in the city. We go through the same process. So, in Taggart's shop, have an engineering design group who comes in and designs projects. And we have a private development group that reviews the work of private developers when they come in. Our plans go through the same process that we go— anybody in the community who would develop or build an OREM, we go through the same process ourselves as we ask them to do. And so we have lots of comments, and so we work with a client to make sure their needs are met. We work to make sure all development issues are resolved and that the public's protected.

Great. I have one thing I noticed. I read an op-ed today. I think it was in this weekend's paper, and it was, it was pointed towards municipal officials. And it was really interesting because it talked about, you know, we're always there for the ribbon cuttings and for the, you know, celebrations of something new, water tanks, new whatever. But it's also important to be there for the maintenance. to keep those— that infrastructure maintained and taken care of and continuing to serve the purpose that that ribbon was cut for, you know. And I've been to cities, I think we all have, locations, areas that haven't necessarily done that. I think I really appreciate your forethought, your juggling the finances to make that work, because that is so important to keep a city this same level of goodness. I've, you know, the city who shall not be named, but I go to a doctor heading up north a little bit, and I know right when I'm in that city when I drive on their roads. So totally appreciate all that you guys do. And, and yeah, behind the scenes, this is so important to save money for our taxpayers. Thank you.

Any questions or comments, Kel?

Thank you.

Do you convey our appreciation to your team as well?

Do.

Next item on the agenda is a general plan process update by Jared Hall, our planning director. 15-minute presentation, 15-minute Q&A.

So while Jared's coming up, uh, we started doing an up— update of the general plan quite a while ago, as you may be aware. And as the Planning Commission, well over a year ago, got into it, I think they found it's a little more complicated to do a general plan update than they may have thought. And we also had then with— on the Planning Commission, some illnesses and resignations and things like that that came up. We now have a planning commission that's up and running with quite a few new members. And so we've been working with them, and we wanted to come in and give you an update on the general plan process and where we are and where we will be. And we think we're on a good Trajectory.

Great.

Jared?

Thanks.

Thanks for the intro, and I will jump into it and then leave plenty of time for questions. And you can go talk to the engineers. They are chattier than you think. I ride the bus with Sammy every day. Ro is a conversationalist. General plan of— so I did— the first slide is a timeline, just an idea of what we think we can do. If we, if we, um, if we maintain a couple of areas of focus and, and, uh, and really, and really pin ourselves down. Um, and we can come back to this later again too, after we've talked about what goes into a general plan and kind of where we, where we see it as a group needing to refocus. During August and September and October, we need to be able to draft what we'd like to do. We have some chapters that are drafted and reviewed that need some more work and some that just need filling in. Um, we can come back to that as well, but we'd like to keep you updated on it. So we would plan on updating the PC on where the draft is on the 2nd of September, and then you all on the 22nd. We could do that in work sessions or whatever works out, but we want to be drafting during August, September, and October. The plan then would be to have that full draft ready for review by you as a council and the commission and key, um, key staff like the directors and legal. Public Works, everybody, so that we're not fouling anything up between the 1st of November, the beginning of November, and beginning of the holidays. That would let us redraft with edits during the holidays and then be back in for adoption at public hearings in January and February. We think we can do that if we pin down and draft during these next few months the remainder of what needs to be done. And we can come back to talk about a little more, but just for starters to talk about, just as a reminder, the general plan. These are kind of the 3 sort of guiding principles for the draft work that we need to get back to. The general plan needs to be general. It should be a high-level planning document. It's not the same thing as zoning. We've talked about that, and I know you're all aware, but just as a reminder for the new commissioners as well, we need to talk about this. The general plan is a high-level general document. Um, one of the goals, um, when we first started doing this at the end of 2024, talking about it and really getting started in 2025, was to align our general plan with the city's area of focus and goals that had been identified at that time. And then we wanted to keep the focus of this general plan on identifying objectives and strategies. And the way that I would— the example I would give is to remember that general plans are not binding. They're broad frameworks, and I think of it as this example is the one that I always use. Connectivity is an idea that belongs in a general plan. The idea that in general, connecting streets is usually better for pedestrian safety, for transportation safety, and for vehicle safety as well. But it's— the general plan is not where the tables about the allowed block lengths in different zones belong, or how long a terminal street can be. For example, that, that kind of detail, we won't have the data to support. Those kinds of decisions in a general plan anyway. It should just identify that connectivity belongs in certain areas, or is more important in area B than area A, for example. That's kind of the framework of a general plan and the purpose of it. The things that we took out of the goals and policies that the council had identified to get into the general plan were these: safe and livable neighborhoods. And there are some subcategories there to promote approaches for owner occupancy, balancing housing options. Preserving character of existing neighborhoods and planning for the development of the heart of downtown to enhance our community life. Thriving and balanced business environments, protecting strong economic foundations, creating opportunities for small businesses, exploring opportunities like incubator spaces and business development programs, and fostering connections with Utah Valley University was one of the things that came up early. And then dependable infrastructure, timely updates to the master transportation plan, efforts to improve connection of trails, adopting an active transportation master plan that's in the works now too, and then continuing efforts efforts for responsible water use redevelopment projects. And that water chapter is— that was referencing the water chapter, and the water chapter has been adopted. It's part of the plan now. Um, a quick idea of just— these are some of the plans and efforts that, that get referenced or should be referenced by the general plan. For example, when we say that we don't have— we don't have the data right now for a big discussion about what block lengths ought to be to promote safety or connectivity or what have you, but different plans as they get updated, could give us that kind of data. So that's the kind of thing that needs to be referenced. The heart of downtown was identified. The active transportation plan, a comprehensive housing study is probably needed at some point. There's not a lot of good planning for the southwest area of the city where a lot of things are happening. Corridor plans could be looked at, stationary plans could be looked at, neighborhood plans could be updated. And again, I just relisted those corridor plans because I'm just That, that way. 3 of them right there at the end, I've already identified. But these are, these are kinds of plans. Some of them exist or are in process right now, but others are ones that the general plan might identify as being needed. Uh, it wouldn't provide the data for those. It wouldn't provide the funding for those. It would just call them out. It wouldn't even provide a timeline for them necessarily. It would just call out that they might be things we need to look at. And with that, the reason I bring this, this slide up is to show that The draft work that needs to be done on these is not impossible in the 3 months that we're planning to knock this out. Because really, they just need to be identified and what they can contribute. Does that make sense? So, with that in mind, um, the timeline that we're proposing about the general plan, the process in general, we're proposing that we will do the writing now, uh, the draft work. We were trying to do this very iterative process with the commission. They wanted to be very involved in And how it would be written and drafted, that, that just did not really work out. So, as we go forward, we'll do that draft work ourselves and present it for review instead.

I guess I would then question, why are you— why do we have the— what is that, November 2nd with the Planning Commission? Should you do—

It would be an update on where the draft is.

So, your work meeting with us, I mean, I thought we would pull the Planning Commission in after.

Good.

And work through it as a council and then pull them, send to them, and then come back to us.

That's kind of what we've done. I don't expect to have all of the draft done on November— this would just be like an update of where we are. So I just put them in, and then my brain always kind of, because I process stuff mainly as a job, I go from the planning commission to the city council, but then we could do them in the reverse order as well. We could show you guys wherever we are in the draft as an update. Earlier in September and put on the 2nd September Planning Commission meeting too. It doesn't, it doesn't really— doesn't affect the timeline.

So then would you— I guess I'm trying to figure out, are we going back to the Planning Commission again?

What are we required to do eventually? Yes, the general plan is a document that has to be recommended by the Planning Commission.

Yeah, the state law says, as I remember, the state law gives— says the Planning Commission, that's one of their very specific responsibilities, is general plan. And so, That's why I think we have it this way, is where the state law says the Planning Commission does the general plan and makes a recommendation to the city council.

They'll have to hold twice, I guess, is my question. It looks like we're— do you mean Planning Commission twice? Am I reading that wrong?

These are— do you mean here at the end?

Yes.

Oh, yes.

Or draft review.

Oh, draft review.

So, well, it looks like maybe 3 times. I didn't see that one, but I see This would be this full draft.

Sorry, I should be more clear. So this would— these would just be updates. I don't want to draft for 3 months and then come to the commission and to the council and say, here's the full draft. I want to midway through, see if we're missing any big marks. So, in— no, in this— It's one of the borough months. September. Thank you. Appreciate that. In September, I would bring it to both bodies and say, here's where we are in the draft right now. Anything going wrong, or are we way off base with this? We would finish then, and the draft review being available from 11/2— that's a Monday, that's the first Monday of November. That date, having it available would be the draft is available, and we wouldn't be bringing it to you. We would be making— we'd email it to you, make it available to all, to the Planning Commission, City Council, same time at that point. So, at that point, we're just looking for comments from everybody to get big things fixed and edited through the holidays.

Then the real one is January.

Public hearings happen in January. I'm assuming 2 per body, just in case.

So you're kind of still looking for help from the Planning Commission, City Council for your draft.

For input. We were literally trying with the first, um, goes at this general plan to have— we had a public-facing, um, it was not easy to get, you know, public-facing, uh, Google Drive so that the commission could literally— commission members could edit comments in or make comments in. The idea was for council to be able to do it too. It just did not— people don't operate that way. Wanted a big shared document that they could all participate in. It just didn't generate what we needed. And mostly in meetings and work sessions, we would wind up talking about— we got a lot of good information out of the work sessions and things, but— They weren't generating the necessary draft material that can be adopted. Lots of ideas.

Ideas. And now you guys are going to draft it.

And part of this is we want to come back and make sure that the ideas we've heard and we're putting together, we'll come back with the council and say, okay, what did we miss? Because we will have invariably missed something, or there needs to be a different emphasis one way or another on Something like that. But we've— in this iterative process, it was a great idea in theory and execution. It just didn't really work. It was difficult for the Planning Commission to do it this way. So we're really going back to a traditional model where we have conversations, we get feedback, and then we will do the drafting. And by we, the royal we, Jared.

Yeah. And Gary and Jared, can I put you on the spot in a public meeting? You promised not to get offended at any feedback, input, direction, questions that may come from the council and Planning Commission. I've never been offended in my life.

I'm offended you would say that.

At the end of the day, in a very real sense, this is the Council's document. And we're here merely to help you get the document you want. And so, as we go through this, we think we're hearing you on certain items, but you know how it happens. And the difficulty with a The, uh, counsel is sometimes you don't know for sure until you see a draft in front of you and then have some time to think about it. Um, because the, the concepts that we're talking about may sound fine, but as we put it into actual language, we want to make sure you feel comfortable with it. You're good with the direction, and we're Fairly and accurately capturing the intent of the council. And then ultimately, as a council, you will have to decide and vote on it to adopt it as your document. So we're not going to be offended. We get offended so easily in so many other ways. This is not one of them.

Yes, council, I just want to just reiterate what— not about being offended, just speaking in, but in my— in a prior chapter, I worked as a planner. for a community and drafted a general plan and put what the council wanted. And then when I would go and say, this is what you wanted, but you need to understand, if this is what you want, then these are the different types of ordinances you're looking at to enact what you want. And they were like, oh, I don't know if we want to do that. So it's, it really is important to think not just the broad, but how are we going to, as a council, actually implement What, what we want, because it may be— there may be some things that are going to make— we're going to be pushing the envelope on some things, maybe, or not. But just, just know that it's, it's the whole package.

And Mayor, along with that, so you, you understand, sure, Jared and I have, you know, personal opinions maybe about something or how something works, but at the end of the day, what we really care about as staff, ultimately to the council, To help you get the document you need is not that we may have a suggestion of language or an idea of something, and that you adopt it. That whether you do or not is okay with us. What we worry about is you adopt something, and then to your point, a year later you come to me and say, Gary, when we were talking about this and we adopted it, or looked like we might adopt it, why didn't you tell me? that this could be a consequence, or these are the foreseeable results of that policy. That's what keeps us up at night. Our— we want to make sure you have as complete information as you possibly can to understand it before you make a decision.

So this is pretty high level though, right?

Yes.

Because I mean, I'm going to use an example that we're all familiar with, right? We had our general plan, and then we had our State Street Master Plan, right? The State Street Master Plan had— the general plan had some great ideas floating up here, right? The State Street Master Plan came down with some specificity that our residents were not pleased with when we discovered what was there. Our businesses were not thriving because they weren't allowed to remodel to the extent they wanted to. There were some unintended consequences that were discovered. From that. So what you're saying is, hopefully you guys will identify to us, if we give you a direction, you'll be able to say to us, this is a perceived unintended consequence you might want to think about. Yeah, that kind of— is that a good summary of what you're trying to say here?

Yeah, yeah.

And if that comes up to you as you're reading the draft stuff, yeah, we'll be— if you bring that up, it's not gonna— it's not gonna bother us because we might not have thought that. If you see it, And are concerned about it, definitely bring it up. The only thing I'm afraid of is an echo chamber. I don't want to write in an echo chamber. I'm somewhat in love with my own thoughts about things, and I need other people to bring me back down. It's better that way.

It's kind of a planner thing.

Yeah, it's probably— it's a personality flaw we all share. All you can do is be aware of it.

Why do we sing in the shower, right?

We talk a lot about You know, the quorum being like this big ship, and you as a council decide which direction we want this big ship to go. You don't really need to worry about all of the little gears and mechanisms in the ship that it takes to turn to get it in alignment with your direction. You just need to tell us at the sitting to go that way, and we'll start moving that way and getting everything in alignment to go. In the meantime, we'll also tell you, it's like, okay, if we do go this way, There's a big rock out there that we might run into, or, hey, we don't have something down in the boiler room needs to be fixed and really help us do what it is that you want to do. And we don't need you to necessarily care about those details because we'll do it. You just need to have trust in us that we'll tell you these things. And we don't want to get going down. It's like, why didn't you tell me that this— would cause this big— it's like, well, you never asked. You know, we never want to do that. And so we're not going to get offended. We just want to make sure the council— because ultimately this is your document. It's not staff's. It's not the Planning Commission. It's your document.

Any other questions or thoughts, council?

Mayor, can I make a comment? Oh, we've got—

yes, the voice. Yes, thanks.

Uh, Jared, this is Quinn. Uh, just really grateful that you're taking the time, and I know this takes a lot of thought and staff time to, to make progress on this, and it's overdue. So I'm just really grateful for that. Uh, question and comments. So my question is, how long do you anticipate this draft being? I know we're trying to keep it pretty general, but, uh, what's, what's your target length? And then secondly, I just encourage you to make sure that the Planning Commission is involved every step of the way. I know that they may not be appropriate drafters, but I do think that, you know, we've— we have appointed them because we value the way that they think about some of these broader principles. And I know they don't always agree with each other, but that kind of conversation, I think, will just be really rich and will be helpful for me as I review it as a city council member. So that's my encouragement.

Thank you. Okay, um, I don't have a page number target really, um, in mind.

Under 1,000 pages.

Under 1,000 pages.

Um, but I get down—

sorry, yeah, less than a lot of, um— so a lot of the— I think I would best answer that by saying that a lot of the stuff, a lot of the page count that comes from a great many general plans comes from data tables and things that we are not going to have new versions of for this, because we're not hiring outside consultant work on it because it's an update. And we're, and we're going in a direction to say we're, we're looking at, for example, we're not going to have a housing element that has a whole bunch of data in it, because we would rather in the future have a housing plan done, a housing study done, and that will be— that'll contain the data. So the page count will be lower. And a lot of general plans currently, we're not going to be in the hundreds of pages.

And structurally, we've talked about taking some of that data in the tables that kind of get in the way of a good logical linear read of the general plan and taking those out of the general plan text and putting it into an appendix of the general plan. So if you want to dive into some of that data, You can, but it won't interfere with a good, more in-depth executive summary of things. So there's not a specific number, but, you know, very, very readable that you could read quickly without getting bogged down in tables. It's there. You don't have to slog through it to get the high-level concepts that we're talking about.

So, are you going to be adding any additional elements to it other than— since it's an update?

That's a great, great question. As the Planning Commission, as we started this process, they did identify a couple of things they wanted to add or change. There are 2 chapters currently for public facilities and parks and recreation. They wanted to combine those, so they'll be losing one in that way. They did want to Do, and I'm still looking at a short implementation chapter at the end. Those would be the 2 main additions. There would be a short sort of implementation strategy chapter that says, here's, there's all your information, all your objectives, all your goals. Maybe they get put in 3 tiers of levels of importance, and you'd have to organize those into the first, you know, the first most important ones are these, the next, and these. Just real simple. But those would be the only 2.

And as staff, we like that implementation idea because we have these big broad principles that look out over the city and its development. There are so many things to look at. We would like to, at some point, have some sort of prioritization of what should we work on next.

Mm-hmm.

The general plan isn't the end. It's actually the beginning. of things that we're doing. So, you know, an example of that is like, we have the general plan. The general plan has some high-level talking points about, you know, parks and creating community and things like that. Well, the council took that and went down a next step and did the Heart of Orem. And so we've got that plan now. And so now we're taking the Heart of Orem and we're looking at, okay, what are some actionable things we can do on that? to partner with UVU and get things done in the community. That's what I'd see the general plan doing is now, like a housing study. I'll let you in on my bias. I'd like to see one of those next steps to be is to be able to get our arms around housing is to actually have a good housing study done. And so that could be in the implementation section. Okay. And then wherever it would rank for the council. It might be really high, it might be mid or low for the council, but then it helps us organize our work on making sure we're getting the council priorities taken care of. Because we're trying— as you have a retreat, we try to go to a retreat, take notes about your priorities, what you're trying to accomplish, try to now get that in line, everything that we do, our general plans and other plans in alignment. With those things. So I think the implementation would be a great idea.

Yeah, and as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, that the state law says that really that the only element that's required is the moderate income housing plan. Is that part of the general plan?

There are 4.

There are other— okay, so there are 4. Okay.

You have to have a land use element. Okay, and that one we've got the most progress on. You have to have a land use element. You have to have a moderate income housing, a housing element, moderate income housing. You have to have transportation. No, I'm sorry, not true. You have to have a water conservation element now.

Oh, okay.

Which—

and that's why we did it. There was a deadline to get the water conservation element done.

Already done some of these.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

There's one other one that I'm missing. It's not transportation.

I'm sorry to quiz you. I just—

I had a slide.

No, that's the thing is they could pretty— a general plan can, as I understand, can have anything in it.

It can. There's a bunch of options after that.

A lot of different options that a lot of times it's focused on land use only, development only, not, not to make the, make the plan bigger necessarily, but, but a lot of times it can go— some cities will just, due to the staff size or the size of the city, they'll just do the required elements and so forth, and others can make them into whatever.

Yeah, and we'll have several.

We want there to be a transportation and economics It's not an active transportation plan, which is part of the transport. Would that be a separate element?

It's, it's part of a high-level sort of transportation element. And then that would refer to the master transportation plan and the active transportation plans, and those would be appendices.

So that would be under the implementation.

Yeah. And so kind of think of it like a— we will talk about parks and recreation in the general plan. But talking about parks and recreation in the general plan, Does not supplant what Bryce is doing in diving into the more details of it. So we may have high-level principles in the general plan for parks and recreation, things that we want to accomplish. Once that's in there, I think Bryce was the last one done in 2021. Yeah, in '21. So we're not too far from doing an update of that plan. So in the general plan, It may just be a handful of pages talking about parks and recreation. So that the next time they update their parks plan, if we have a consultant or we do it in-house, one of the first things we do is, okay, what are the council's overarching goals for parks and recreation? And then take those principles and make sure they end up in that document, similar to like the slide Jared had on. We like connectivity of roads, pedestrian ways in the city. That's a good general statement to have. But when you now take a look at, okay, how do we really do this? A lot of— some of that might be in the transportation master plan and in the active transportation part of the transportation master plan. But You know, it doesn't mean every street, every time, everywhere has a bike lane and a pedestrian lane and 3 lanes of traffic. It doesn't mean that. It just means we like these things. Now come back as you do your more in-depth studying. How are you implementing these goals in a more specific context?

That's right. Thank you. Any other questions?

Can I ask one? Actually, just because I'm not sure I answered Quinn's— the second part of Quinn's question about involving the Planning Commission more as we go along. And to that point, you all as well. What I'm suggesting here is, is work session updates. That number could be increased. We could do 2 of them. We could do 1 in September and 1 October. We could do 2 in October and 1 in September, whatever you all want. It's what— it's how much you're comfortable taking up time with me here. So, I know how, like, my children, my wife feel about that, and it's probably—

I think you guys kind of answered that question. I mean, this is my perception. Planning Commission has been working on it for over a year, and we haven't made a whole lot of progress. So that's why you're making the recommendation of writing the draft, kind of pulling it to staff for a more Process. I mean, just to kind of pull it together a little more, a little—

Maybe a more focused—

Focus.

Yeah.

So that will change compared to what was done last year. And I don't know how much you've done this year, but last year especially. But the points you're making here is in order to meet your timeline, I guess I don't know. Are you saying in order to meet your timeline, these are the ones you've set up, this is what's going to help you the most to get the reviews of your draft?

I'm not sure that work sessions, that, that like updating people in a quick work session would slow us down if we want to have more involvement all along that. So it wouldn't necessarily slow it down, won't affect it, just gathers more ideas.

It was just the whole— I mean, I saw some of those meetings and they came up with some great ideas last year, right? Some of those. But like you said, It was— I saw you guys kind of struggle to pull it down.

Yeah.

And to pull it into an active document. So it sounds to me like that's what you're saying is you'll give them the updates, but the writing part of it needs to move forward.

Jared, using this timeline you've got on here, there's obviously—

there's a difference between giving an update versus Actual review, right?

Sort of workshopping it and having kind of a back and forth, right? Yeah, that's, that's kind of it.

So I support you guys in what you've presented here. I think that's the best way to get it accomplished.

And we view this kind of like our version of the Declaration of Independence, and Jared is our Thomas Jefferson. We have a committee, we're talking about high-level principles. He's going to go out do a draft, it will then come back for tweaking.

Thank you, Aaron Burr.

Yes.

Pull out the guns, the muskets.

Thank you. I'm sorry, I nerd out on this because this is one of the things I love about planning is planning.

Mayor, do you mind if we ask Councilmember Quinn Meekum, did we answer her question or respond to her comment?

Sufficiently.

Well, what I heard is that you have no idea how long it's going to be, and that you're going to take a, you know, a first cut, but that you will involve Planning Commission extensively along the way, if I interpreted that right.

Did I get that right?

That's right.

Yes, updates. The Planning Commission will get updates on their drafts.

Yes, I, you know, updates are great. I do think that, you know, bringing the Pine Commission as well as us, of course, into process to get feedback rather than just be updated, I think, is an important part of the process.

I just want to make sure it's not bogging it down. I just saw it happen last year. So I think there's— I think they're telling us they're at a point now they need to move forward.

And this is good because I think to hopefully address concerns that I'm hearing with this is we do have some elements that are really, we think, pretty close, like the land use element. That's one of the state law required ones, and it's typically our largest one. That's very close. We could start, as we get chapters done, we could start sending those out to Planning Commission and Council. for feedback on it while we're working on other things and incorporate it into the process that we're doing here.

That would be possible.

So when we're updating them, it could be an update on, okay, yeah, we've drafted these 2 chapters. Here you go, take a look at it. You can start that. And we're then updating on, we're working on these chapters and We'll get back with you if any issues come up. We can let them know. We can let you know. So we can, you know, really handle that any way you want. And it's probably— The idea to go through this is we're kind of doing some of this concurrently, updating Planning Commission, giving them things. But we also want to make sure you're updated. And, you know, rather than we get through, we're done with the process, and then here's this big document. That's, you know, much more manageable. I keep telling Jared, I want it to be half of whatever we have now. And so, how long is it now?

I can give you a page count on that. If it's half of what we got now, it's about 80 pages.

Because when— well, before y'all were here, this general plan was 15 pages long. That was the—

That's how I've always seen them too, is very broad, very flexible.

Yeah, it was, it was way— it was back in the Bob Moore days.

Yeah, and we're back. We're trying to get more to that model that somebody who lives in the city, or somebody who maybe wants to come in and do a business or develop, can look at it and find a fairly small document that can give them a good sense of, okay, where does the city council really want to take the city? And so, uh, I'm looking for cutting in half at least what we have. But we can do this concurrently. I don't want at the end without any updates to the council. Oh, by the way, here's a—

You know, appreciate that.

Big document. I'd like to do work with Planning Commission and the council at the same time.

Gary, some of this update or review or showing drafts, some of it could be addressed if there is something that we need to get clarity on, perhaps like a joint meeting or something as well.

Sure.

Yes, I'd like to have a joint meeting.

I didn't include a joint meeting in the timeline, but we could. I mean, it's all— this is not set in stone. I will not— won't hold anybody to this. This is not a binding timeline.

Though he does get offended over his timelines.

Yeah, I don't complain to anybody about it except Sammy on the bus. Sammy on the bus.

This looks great.

Thank you. And it looks like the next item on the agenda is yours as well.

I'll just stay right here.

Stoutwell, 45 minutes presentation, 15-minute Q&A.

Do you want me to walk back to my chair and walk back up, or am I okay?

Yes, walk back.

Plug and replug.

While he's walking back and coming up, if you remember last time we talked about detached accessory dwelling units, that the state law changed and requires the city to go in and create an ordinance by October that deals with detached accessory dwelling units. And so we actually took it to Planning Commission. They've made a recommendation, and you saw we sent out a draft of an ordinance. They sent the ordinance out. We have August today, and then we have August, and we have— we're not looking for the council really to make a decision because there's some important issues in here to think about and look at until the last meeting of September. If we meet that deadline, We're in compliance with state law and we're not concerned. So, really, what, uh, we're here today to do is have Jared—

you—

we sent you out some materials last time. You may have had a chance to look at it. You may not. Jared's going to walk us through now the ADU ordinance, uh, not looking at a redline strikeout of anything, but just the concepts that it has in it. of, of what it's supposed to do. And there are some issues that we can talk about and get feedback on. And then I anticipate at least one more work session where we'd come in and talk about this before we would be asking the council to make any sort of decision.

This presentation will include Planning Commission recommendations?

Yes.

This is—

yeah, this will be— this will be a review of what the Planning Commission recommended. And then a little background information as well. So, as Gary mentioned, this is supposed to be adopted by October 1st, and this is specifically for detached accessory dwelling units. Right now, um, cities are required to allow accessory dwelling units. We call them accessory apartments, which complicated our lives a little bit because everyone calls them accessory dwelling units now, including state codes. We thought, Uh, we're, we're leaving most of that alone. I think just for the goals of this change, we want to meet the requirements of state code, which is to adopt that detached accessory dwelling unit ordinance and keep the substance of what ORM has been doing for a long time with accessory dwelling units, which are called accessory apartments. Keep that intact. We haven't proposed a lot of changes there. In fact, nothing except reordering of a couple of statements and then calling them accessory dwelling units instead of— Uh, for continuity, and then combining the regulations in one section so that it's easy to find, as opposed to having accessory dwelling units or accessory apartments in one place and detached units somewhere else.

And we are suggesting let's change the name from accessory apartments to accessory dwelling units. It'll make our lives a little easier.

That's what everyone calls it now, but we've more or less been calling them accessory apartments for a long time. So probably an adjustment. For folks, but, you know, it's, uh, it's kind of where we wanted to go. Um, the state code requires a couple of things. It's important to understand that because that's where we, as I said, we try to meet those minimum requirements of state code. Um, we have to allow detached accessory dwelling units, which incidentally is something like this, just for— Purpose of complete clarity, it's an accessory dwelling unit that's allowed on the same lot as this home, but it's not part of the home. The, the ones that we allow currently would be contained within the walls of the home, the accessory dwelling unit, the accessory apartment. This is an allowance that we're required to do for something separated from the house itself. Um, so they have to be allowed on any single-family residential property that's at least 11,000 square feet or greater. That's the minimum. That's the bottom that we're allowed to go by the state code. Um, they— we are— we're supposed to make sure they comply with building codes, health codes, fire codes. Um, and we have to allow for legally constructed accessory structure, like a detached garage, to be converted into a, a DADU, um, if it can meet our setbacks and things that we impose. Those are really the only shall statements that are in the state code for this. Uh, there are a bunch of shall-nots. We're not allowed to require them to have a conditional use permit. Um, then it has this one vague statement. We're not allowed to require setbacks from property lines. or from a detached dwelling that make it unreasonably difficult to locate a DADU on a property. Um, we're not allowed to require more than 2 onsite parking spaces for any DADU that's bigger than 650 square feet. And we're not allowed to require any more than 1 for a DADU that's less than 650 square feet. Uh, we're also not allowed to require design standards that would be in conflict with 102618, and that's the pretty code. statements. We're not allowed to require certain materials or certain roof pitches or things like that. So those, those are kind of the may-nots, and all of these codes that we're proposing, or all these changes we're proposing, are trying to meet those requirements. The first part, I think we think about this, what's been drafted in 3 parts. The first part of it is a purpose statement, a quick purpose statement. And some definitions. The purpose statement is where we have said a couple of main things that people— we want people to understand about accessory dwelling units in general and DADUs new. You only get them on residential properties, and they're subject to the restrictions of this section. You don't have to say that to people, but you have to tell people these are the codes for these things. And then only 1 ADU of whichever kind is permitted in addition to 1 primary dwelling. So what we're saying is explicitly, You can have a house here, and you can have a detached ADU, meet the requirements, or you can have one inside your house, an ADU inside your house, but you cannot have an ADU inside your house and a detached ADU. You get one or the other, not both. That makes sense. So we put that right at the beginning in the purpose statement, kind of the opening statement.

Let me ask you.

Yeah.

Is— let me go back to the email from somebody who— or a text from somebody whose neighbor Um, how—

keep—

has there an RV in the backyard as a dwelling unit?

Yeah, no, that's—

that wouldn't need to be spelled out specifically, or is that referenced somewhere else?

It's spelled out specifically by the building codes. Um, this part where they have to comply with building health and fire codes, you can't legally live in an RV in your backyard because it's not hooked up to utilities. It's not on a permanent foundation, so it doesn't meet it for that reason. You don't actually have to say thou shalt not live in an RV in your backyard. The health and fire building codes already tell you you can't. So, good question. And people do that. They want to— people want to move tiny homes in, and that's probably fine under these kind of codes.

Short-term rentals.

Yeah. And you, you, you could, you could do short-term rentals. Let me just— as long as you brought it up.

Well, I said that.

Yeah. This proposal, just so you know, and the commission and staff are very much aware that STRs are a thing. Um, this proposal dealing with the detached accessory dwelling units does not deal with whether you can use one as a short-term rental or not. The default is the default, and we haven't tried this.

So we're going to take all that and set it over here for tonight.

It doesn't have—

we're going to just talk about detached.

If it happens that you wind up being able to do them on properties, then they would be eligible into DADU perhaps, or you could restrict them from being used. It just depends. We're not treating that in this.

Proposal.

Okay, part of this draft. Does that make sense? I felt like it was the wrong time to make a decision on that. We wanted to get it done in time for the deadline, so we figured. Um, we did have to make a few definition changes, and following closely on the heels of this ordinance is a, is a kind of an omnibus definitions change. I was trying to encapsulate it in the code. But we're, um, we're going to do another text amendment on the heels of this that will change all of the definitions to match all over in the code. So wherever it says accessory apartments in the code, in other places for code enforcement and things, it'll now say accessory dwelling unit. Changes like that, they won't have any substance, but they'll make the definitions match. These are the ones we felt like we needed to define so that people would understand. An accessory dwelling unit is a single-family dwelling that is subordinate to the primary dwelling on the same lot or parcel. So you can't have an accessory dwelling unit that's accessory to nothing. It's got to be accessory to a primary dwelling. To it, a primary dwelling means a single-family detached home that's permitted by the zoning on the lot or parcel where it's located. So what that means is that if there's a leftover house in a commercial zone, for example, a single-family home legal nonconforming on a commercial property, we would not further entrench that. nonconforming use by saying, oh, go ahead and have an ADU there. You wouldn't be allowed to do one because you're supposed to not be doing a house there eventually. So only where it's allowed by the zoning. The 3rd is attached accessory dwelling unit is what we are currently calling accessory apartments, an accessory dwelling unit that is contained within the footprint of the primary dwelling or is attached directly to it. And 4th, the detached dwelling unit is an accessory dwelling unit separate from and subordinate to the primary dwelling on that lot or parcel. And then again, here in that definition, Mayor, to your point from earlier, such a dwelling must be placed on a permanent foundation and connected to all utilities. Um, part 2, that's the first part. The second part of it is the regulations that we already have. We're moving them from where they are to the new section that we're proposing so that they can be found easily. So that whole section will look like a big strikeout, but fear not, it's just getting transferred over to the new, the new portion. Um, right now, and this wouldn't change, attached ADUs that we currently call accessory apartments would not be allowed in R-5 or PRD zones. They're, they're just not allowed in those smaller zones, smaller lots, things. Owner occupancy is a requirement. They're located inside the footprint of the primary home or attached to it. Parking gets required for it in addition to the primary dwelling's parking. So under our code, you have to have 2 parking spaces for your primary dwelling. You have to provide parking for your accessory dwelling as well. Utility meters have to be in the property owner's name. You can have a 2nd meter for water on your accessory dwelling unit, on your accessory apartment, but that meter has to be in the property owner's name. That keeps people from, from head faking us and running duplexes instead of owner-occupied accessory dwellings. Um, entrances to the ADU aren't supposed to be on the same facade as the entrance to the home or facing a street, and permits are required for the work, and you have to get a rental dwelling license when you're done. We track all the accessory apartments in the city.

Okay, can I ask that facing the street thing? So the stairway cannot go down from the street side.

Well, if you're— it's a basement entrance, it would have to— it should be around the side or around the rear.

Well, I'm sorry. So if the entrance is on the side, do the stairs have to go down from the back, or can they go down from the front?

They can go down from the front as long as it's on the side facade. The stairs could go down.

So facing the street just means on the same side as the—

You want it to be on the front side. Makes them look more like a duplex. The point of that is to make it not look like a duplex.

Go back to that picture of the cute little house.

This one, that is cute. It is cute, right? Yes.

So, in theory, this would not— this, I guess, this foreground is the detached ADU.

Yeah, this is the detached.

Face the street.

No, this shouldn't face a street. This entrance here could face like this to a backyard, or it could face the house. It could face into this backyard, but the street is out in front of this house, and this shouldn't be This shouldn't— well, that's a good question.

We don't—

why is it materially important? Because it looks cute either way.

It is cute either way. Someone's in there writing a children's book for sure.

Um, that is the spot.

Chamomile or something.

I don't know.

But this is— we also don't allow them. So we'll get to setbacks and things, but we wouldn't, wouldn't want detached accessory dwelling units to be between the primary dwelling and the street. So they'd be in the rear yard or the side yard.

If it's in the rear yard, why do we care what direction?

So, in the rear, it doesn't matter. It can be facing the street, but it can't be like— what we mean is, if this is again, this is not for the detached, but for the— it says detached up here. I'm sorry, that's just the titles and slides. But these are the codes for the accessory dwelling units that are part of the house. So, when you're doing an internal accessory dwelling unit, like if your accessory dwelling unit was inside this house and this didn't exist, we wouldn't want the entrance to the accessory dwelling unit to be facing this street.

That makes much more sense.

That makes sense. So, it's partly confusing because it's I've got these detached pictures, but I wish we could say it has to— I was just saying, if you can move in here soon.

Wait, not just like that.

It has to look like this picture.

Yeah, yeah, we need to have something that says it looks as though a children's book would be written.

That's what's appropriate.

If you're doing that, we'll let you build it.

That's probably 10-20-18 would not—

That was written exactly to prevent that.

Yeah.

Sorry. Um, so yeah, it couldn't be, and we do require rental dwelling licenses. Um, and we'll come back to this if we need to, but the same facade issue, that's, that's where we're at with that. We require permits for the work and we require licenses for these that you have to take out a license to run it as a landlord. So, um, detached ADUs, this is the 3rd part. So all those things, we brought them back over. We didn't change anything about those codes. They're all still the same. Uh, in this, in this proposed draft for detached, that's the 3rd section of the proposed ordinance. Uh, they have to be permitted, like we said, for lots at least 11,000 square feet. For the sake of numbers, for those of you that are numbers people, there are 5,800 single-family residential properties in Orem City that are currently at least 11,000 square feet. Um, so not a small number. Um, not all of them will qualify in other ways. Setbacks might keep a few from, from working, but that's the, That's the plan. Um, size restrictions. We have proposed a minimum of 200 square feet that lets us for sure require building permits. Um, and then never allowed to be larger than 50% of the primary dwelling. Again, the point is to keep it subordinate to the existing home. So, if you have a little tiny home and you build a gigantic accessory dwelling in it, it feels a little, a little wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah. So nothing would keep you from Uh, from building, like, if you had a little tiny house that was way back on your lot, grandma's old farm lot or something, and you wanted to build a big new house in the front and make the back one your accessory dwelling unit, if it met those— if it met, by happenstance, our codes, we wouldn't say no to that. But the purpose is that it has to be no more than 50% of the size of the main house. Um, lot sizes, we were proposing, and the Planning Commission has forwarded a recommendation proposing this. Lot sizes between 11,000 and 13,000, for all intents and purposes, square feet, 850 square feet for the maximum size for the accessory dwelling unit, and no more than 2 bedrooms. Uh, for lots between 13,000 and 15,000 square feet, 1,000 square feet for the ADU and no more than 2 bedrooms. And the truly large lots, the 15,000+, 1,200 square feet for the ADU and 3 bedrooms. Um, we picked these numbers out of a lot of different codes that we'd read. A lot go up to 1,200. You see a few that are 1,500 and that kind of thing, but mostly they cap out at about 12, and a lot have 650 square feet as a minimum. There's a maximum for smaller lots. I'm going to take 50 on 11,000 just because there are so many house plans for accessory dwelling units that are about 800 square feet. There's just a lot. So, that's where we came up with those numbers. And we don't have a lot of time for a whole bunch of research before October. So. Crank these in. Um, height restrictions, maximum height of 20 feet for a pitched roof ADU structure, 14 for flat roofs, not to be taller than the primary dwelling. We would allow loft spaces under the code that we proposed, but not more than 20% of the interior of the house. Because enterprising people will just make a loft that goes all the way to 5 feet over here, little stairwell going up and make themselves a 2nd story. That's not really a 2nd story. So we defined loft spaces and then no exterior balconies. Um, because again, this is the intent of a detached accessory dwelling unit, or the value proposition of it is that it adds another dwelling on a property without truly affecting the residential character of the place where it is. And kind of undermine that with balconies or setbacks that are too close, or what have you. So, with that in mind, let's talk about setbacks. Uh, from a primary dwelling on the lot, we've proposed 10 feet. There was a lot of talk at the planning commission about 6 feet, or whether we were 10 feet or 6 feet. And I asked Emma to do us some, and she has done for us some examples, and 6 feet was in her brain. So they all show accessory dwelling units at 6 feet behind a house instead of 10. We'll get to that in a second. The actual draft says 10 feet. I'm going to get that out of the way now when it's as confusing as possible.

Sorry.

Uh, 20 feet from any dwelling on an adjacent lot. And if somebody happens to have a nonconforming house, it's real close, and 10 feet wouldn't keep you 20 feet from that, then 20— this rule would kick in and keep you at least 20 feet from their house. 10 feet from any interior property line, a side or rear property, and 25 feet from any public or private street. And then again, we talked about this a little bit, but not to be located between the primary dwelling and a street of any kind, corner side. double frontage lot or in front of the house, just because the house is a long way back. You still have to be behind the house. Um, and again, we— because code requires it, state code requires it, we've got a section saying you can use an existing accessory structure that can be converted, remodeled, meeting our setbacks and our other height requirements and things like that. Um, any questions about setbacks? We can come back to them.

There's a— I've seen a few properties in Orem where they have an attached unit, whether it be a shed or something that goes right up to the fence and goes— you showed it in your— from your first pictures, goes to the property line. A lot of cases that doesn't make sense, but there may be some cases where it does make sense. Are there ways to work with those?

We'd have to look at them. I don't know. And we can talk more about that as we look at the examples that Emma prepared for us too. So, but it's a good question right now, our accessory structure. So, like, if you have a detached garage, You can be very close to your property line with a detached garage. We propose that 10 feet is a minimum, just because it feels like— it feels like a dwelling that someone lives in being close to your property line. It's different than their garage where they keep their lawnmower. So, but that's— we can talk about that more. It's a good point. Let's see, a couple of quick things about parking before— and other things before we get to the, uh, the The examples of what these might look like in real life, or at least where they'd be located. Parking needs to be located— these, we kept these from the existing accessory apartments code that we have. We just mirrored that. Located behind the front setback. So, front yard driveway spaces like here, you couldn't say, well, I've got my parking from ADU. You have to provide it like around the side of the house or something. So it's specific. And this is truly used for the ADU as opposed to No homeowner living here was going to have his car parked in there and let the occupant be parked in back and have to move his car all the time. That just guarantees they're on the street. So we require them to be behind driveway or outside of the driveway. Um, 1 additional space. This is right out of the, um, the state requirements. 1 additional space for any DAU that's 200 to 650 square feet. 2 additional spaces for anything bigger than 650 square feet. Now, these slides that, um, I'm going to show you in a second. Again, utility service. This is another thing that we're allowed to do. We're allowed to review the utility service availability and make sure that it can handle— that our water and sewer and things can handle having another unit here. It's not usually a problem. ADUs have become prevalent enough that whenever we do updates to water things, they're usually— the consultants are always asking how, you know, what's allowed in these areas, et cetera. And because accessory apartments have been allowed for a long time. That's probably already been part of the consideration, but there might be those cases where we want to make sure that they can run water lines because maybe there aren't easements to get the water line back there. Maybe it doesn't work. We just want to make sure that's part of the review. And again, they're required to obtain permits for the new construction and get a rental dwelling license, just like interior accessory dwelling units.

And then, then they'll have their own separate hookup charge, right? Like apartment buildings.

Exactly. Um, let's see. Now, here's some examples. Emma pulled these lots at random, just looking at aerials and then zooming in to see if it would meet our 11,000 square feet or larger. Tried to get some different kind of lot configurations and different lot sizes, and then applied our proposed ordinance, the one that— the drafted ordinance to these lots. So you'll see parking spaces. She tried to say where we— where they could locate parking if they had room to do that. Uh, and the size that would be allowed based on the lot size. So, based on this lot's size, the available square footage in the back after setbacks of 25 from the road, 10 from the interiors, and 6 from the house. Again, it should be 10, but 6 is one of the things we talked about. Um, they would have a— they would be allowed a 1,000-square-foot accessory detached accessory dwelling unit, and they could site one there. So. That's, that's kind of the space it would take up in the rear yard and what it might be. That's a likely spot for them to put it. That makes sense. I have 5 or 6 of these just as examples. So you can consider—

That was kind of unique. That's a corner lot, right? Those are a little more complicated.

A little harder to do. We wanted some different kinds of ones because there's a cul-de-sac lot in here too. So far in her random, in her random review, she has not found one that would not work. Uh, an 11,000+ square foot lot that you could site one. This is another one. This lot is 11,325 square feet, so it would get an 850 square foot allowance for one. They might not take up the whole thing, but you could put a maximum size one there. And those are its setbacks.

What's the setback from the neighbor?

The rear from here or here? This is 10 corner lot again. It's showing 10.

This is another corner lot.

Uh-huh. You got a corner here. They're 25 from that corner side and 10 from the interior here. Total distance from here to the house. I don't know. This is a larger side yard. This home could be because it's a side yard. It could be located closer than that in other situations. In this particular one, it's, it's not. And then again, parking for the parking, you're going to see 4 on each one, or some, if it's a smaller one, maybe 3, but 2 for the primary dwelling in the garage there. And then the driveway doesn't get a count. They'd have to pour a pad around the side here like that for the parking. For the ADU, here's a cul-de-sac lot. Again, they'd have to get creative with the parking. They could do them in tandem. They could just run a longer driveway or something, but they could do a 1,000 square foot one back here, meet those setbacks. And you can see kind of where it would likely put the unit.

Why are we using 1,000?

Because that's what would be allowed. This is a 13,000 square foot lot. So, to the draft that we currently have, you could do up to 1,000 square feet of detached accessory dwelling unit. Okay, this is the maximum. This is the biggest one that you— this is the biggest one you could do regardless, even if they had 3 times as much space back here. That's the biggest one they could do based on the draft.

I might have missed this before, but can you have tandem parking behind the house?

You can under state code, under one of the— on that 1020, the one that doesn't allow us to do pretty. It also doesn't allow us to not count tandem parking for accessory.

Good question.

Tandem parking, favorite target of planners everywhere. Not allowed. They don't let us target that anymore.

We're discriminatory.

Here's another cul-de-sac lot. Those should be the hardest ones to locate these on, generally speaking, and so far, not too bad. This is This is larger than 11,000— sorry, larger than 11,000 square feet, but not large enough to allow the 1,000 square foot maximum. So you get 850 square feet back here, but you could do up to 850 square feet back there and make your setbacks work the way that we have proposed them at 10 feet.

So, are you saying that that is 10 feet from the house?

This is, this is this around the house. Just this gray you're seeing is actually only 6 feet. If it were 10, it would still actually make it, but It still looks like clip the corner of it. Yeah, it might.

It might.

And they would have to— they'd have to—

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding, because that 10 feet looks about the same as—

It's 10 feet.

Yeah. So you're saying the top red corner is 6 feet from the house?

This is 6 feet here, right here.

Okay, so that's set back more than 6 feet.

Yeah, this is set back more than 6 feet.

Yeah.

Sorry. No, that—

I just couldn't tell.

Yeah, no, I'm sorry. That's, that's why it's a little confusing because it's the 6 feet instead of the 10. But it's actually— the code says— the code that we proposed says 10. But we drew these at 6, just having confused ourselves talking about 6 versus 10.

Yeah, but the 10 is the property line.

Yes.

Go through the logic of the 6 versus 10. Why they—

6 foot is— it's a great question. The 6 feet is what you're required—

the current—

if you want to build an accessory, a shed or a garage in your backyard, you have to stay at least 6 feet from your house. We wrote the draft saying 10, just to make it a uniform 10 feet from the house, 10 feet from property lines that are interior, and 25 from streets. But the commission had, when they were discussing the draft, they talked about what's required for current, you know, 6 feet is 6 feet in their brains, because that's what we require for accessories. And this is accessory in name, at least accessory dwelling units. So, 6 feet is a pretty standard. If you're 6 feet behind the house, if you're separated 6 feet from your dwelling, you don't have fire code problems with the garage or the shed or the accessory dwelling unit. Frankly, anything that you're doing, that's why 6. 10, just to make it for privacy purposes, I guess. But, you know, if you wanted to allow people to do 6 feet instead of 10 from their house, To make some— like, if this one, for example, was 10 and it was just clipping the corner, 6 feet wouldn't clip the corner. If you want to make it more accessible to people, 6 is a reasonable standard to close. It's close to their house. It lets them keep it close to their house and still get to do it without violating anybody else's setbacks.

Probably favor making it more flexible for the homeowner who has to live with the consequences of how far the place is, but to make a decision. So it doesn't impact the neighbors. I think So, and that's my— I don't know what's the right time to say this, but for me, impact on the neighbors is key here.

Sure.

Because the tendency is I'm going to tuck this as far away from me as possible. Right? And yet you're putting it closer to your neighbors, especially our weavers. So you're saying right now on our commercial code, we have a 1-to-1 height ratio. So you're 10 feet away. You can't have higher than 10 feet. If you're— so I almost feel like we should put the same protection in here so that the impact goes to the person who's trying to gain the benefit for the primary dwelling, for the primary benefit or dwelling, because they're the one getting the financial benefit. They're the one, you know, it's on their property. So why are you infringing on your neighbor's privacy by trying to put it as far back in your yard?

And we could, we could entertain that.

I would like to see how you could make that fit with the law.

Yeah, I don't think it would be a problem with the law. We were allowed to regulate the height and things. And actually, I'm gonna go all the way back to the writer's cottage. That's not real tall. You know, you could, even with that peak, that wouldn't be hard to site. And still, you know, if you're— and I'm not— I completely agree with the thoughts there because the accessory dwelling units, especially detached accessory dwelling units, The whole point is for them not to be an impact to the character, right? So if they're maintaining that, anything that pushes them to be smaller or located more unobtrusively, that's good. We just— the only thing I worry about is falling afoul of this right here, the unreasonably difficult. As long as it's not unreasonably difficult, then we're not going to have a problem with the state on it.

You do like a range?

Yeah, let me get back to the heights. Sorry, range is a good idea.

Like range from property line. Right.

Increase height as you're further from the property.

Yeah, sure.

Absolutely.

Because we do that in for our— first, that are next to commercial. We use that as a protection. That's just standard planning protections.

We could absolutely implement something like that. Look what that would do. I don't think it would be a problem for the state code as long as it was, you know, I want that.

I would like to have you help me figure this out with not only height, but also once again, I'm going to come back to This impact should be felt by the homeowner who is building it on their property. Their property should feel the impact more than the property to the side or behind them.

Sure.

And if you're pushing it clear back in the corner, because we're only doing 10 feet, when they could put it within 6 feet of their house and still build it, then that gives them the impact instead of their neighbor. Because then if there's a baby crying in the middle of the night in that little detached ADU, they're going to hear it more than their neighbor's going to hear it. something like that. That would kind of be my thoughts on how do we make sure that we're giving opportunity, but also protecting the next-door neighbor from negative impacts.

Sure.

The building height in the code here is what, 20 feet for a pitched roof and 14 for a flat? So if you did the 1-for-1 like you're talking about commercial zones, That would mean a pitched roof would need to be 20 feet from the— from a property line, which now protects neighbors from that encroachment and would probably— in the code we have 10 feet. Building code, you can't go below 6, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So the minimum we could go for an accessory Structure would be 6 feet from the— from a property, from the existing home. Yeah. Yeah, because then building code issues come in and—

I totally get that.

Yeah.

And to me, I'm more comfortable with kind of that because once again, this should be not noticed by anyone. That's why the internal ADUs work out so well is because really, if you got parking, then you don't have them.

And I do think ultimately, I think I'm reasonably sure that internal ADUs will also continue to be more popular. They're just generally easier to do. Although, if I'm wrong, the conversations that I've had with other planners is that the thing that's going to change all of this, what's going to make that not the case, is the advent of these buy it on Amazon, have it Crane dropped into your backyard on a pad. Pretty easy. Flat it with something, and that's going to change all that.

It's—

stick building was much more expensive than remodeling your basement to make it meet building codes. But that's changing. So go ahead.

We have dinner ready for us and take a break, but I don't know what the rest of your presentation— I want to make sure that we break at an appropriate point for a quick blessing on the food and grab our dinner.

Christmas is as boring as this, so you could—

this is as good as this gets. I've asked Councilmember Neal if she would offer a blessing on the food.

And your Father in heaven, we're so grateful this day that we can gather together in this free country to have a meeting and discuss what's in the best interest of our city. We're grateful today also for the food, and we ask that you please bless it and bless us to have wisdom as we continue throughout this night. And we say this in the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Amen. Thank you. I didn't know if there was— there was going to be like a time before you do an interpretive dance or—

No, there's no dancing like that.

Okay, check that on the agenda.

Not legally allowed to dance.

What code?

That's part of the dance class.

And I could— you can take a break and grab your dinners if you want. You want to do that? Attorney's like, 5 minutes.

You don't want your sweater on anymore? It might be cool inside.

You can take it with you. Got it.

How are you? You're kind.

Thank you, sir.

Let me get that for you.

Yeah, there you go. Please.

Oh, sorry.

Go ahead.

We're gonna wait for just a second for Jen to get back. Council Member Gale, I'll resume.

Just this, I have a couple more of these slides that show kind of where it is, but, um, so I'll do that and then we can talk about what we want to come back with and maybe some other potentials or other things we want to talk about. This is just another cul-de-sac lot where you could locate again 2 for the primary dwelling. We do 2 for this 850 square footer. You could put that back here without too much trouble. Here's a slightly more complicated cul-de-sac lot on an alligator-shaped lot, a little harder to locate, but they still— we're at 6 from the house here. You make it at 10 from the house, probably shrink the footprint. But again, you can do these 2 parking spaces and maybe get 2 more. It might be a little tricky. You might have to do a tandem, but it could work. So the thing that we wanted to show was kind of exactly what came up was Wanted to show the other houses around. So you have to imagine, here's the house that I live in. I'm building this 1,000-square-foot guest house, guest cottage, accessory dwelling unit. This is this other person's house. So, relevant to that height discussion, this footprint is one thing, you know, taking up the space, but the height of it is a whole other matter. So that, that proximity is what, if I'm hearing you right, is what's been concerning to you. The proximity of another structure here that's maybe taller and is much closer to this house. This has ever been. Not that they couldn't do an addition here or something and probably meet some setbacks, but still, this is different. A separate guest house, someone living there all the time. So, um, I think that's my 2nd to last one that we can talk about different changes. And this is a little interior lot. It's a smaller lot, just barely over the 11,000. Well, 12,196, actually just a big house. Um, 850 square foot, you could locate it back there. A lot of those Amazon deals I've been talking about are like 600 square feet. They're a little smaller than this. Anybody, any one of these could accommodate one of those. But again, you have proximity to this house here, back of backlot house right there, and this folk— this, this house here, this folks— these folks are going to see that more than, than they would have otherwise. Those are my only Um, slides about that, um, relevant to the idea of height. Again, this is not a real tall structure. So if we, if we went a different direction on height and tried to look at, uh, kind of a graded height like Linda was talking about, would you like to see what that might look like for these? We could, uh, we could take a look at that, bring it back to a work session and talk about grading the height from relating it to distance from property lines. Starting at that 10 and going up from there. Is that something that's interesting? I need to hear if that's something that we'd like to see. So I think that's important.

Makes sense.

Yeah, and this again, again, looking at these, it probably won't be hard to accommodate. It's not going to keep anybody from getting to do it. I think just looking at the kinds of units, if these are the kinds of units you want to see. Now, we do get people coming in and calling in sometimes saying, well, why can't I have 2 stories for my Accessory dwelling unit, or why can't I put a unit over my garage, or why can't I have this tall? Because of those reasons, we don't want to intrude upon other properties that are adjacent. They don't love that. They don't accept that necessarily. But if that's the goal, these kinds of units, if that's the goal, these can be easily accommodated with a graded height. Take a look at that. Is that something— is there anything else in there we ought to look at and bringing it back to you? And we'll bring— we'll come whatever other work session you're willing to invite us to, and we'll talk about Changes to it is the height and the setback.

If we could, even on the larger lots.

Kind of.

So once again, they're going to try to put it in the very back corner so they don't feel the impact. I almost feel like find some type of a range that puts it closer to their house. I mean, maybe on the really big ones, you say you have to put it within 20 feet of your house and still have 40 feet behind you. You know, if there's a really big lot, instead of just Okay, back there, like a range of a location range relative to the house.

Starting with the house is the point, as opposed to the property.

Yeah.

Okay, that's kind of located at a certain— you can't be located further than X from your house, for example.

Well, so I want to be flexible with that, but at the same time, that would depend on how close it is to the house behind. So it's still 50 feet from the yard behind. Yeah, and I don't care if you're 20, 30 feet from the house, but this is, you know, challenging challenge.

It is a challenge, but again, it's one that you can't really— can't worry too much about it because the challenge I was going to bring up is the same one that happens with these distance rules, like 20 feet between. You can't locate an accessory structure closer than 20 feet to a dwelling on another lot. So somebody locates their garage, their detached garage, and then Gentleman B from the lot next door wants to add on to his house. It's going to put it too close to this guy's garage. And I say, well, I'm sorry, you can't add on to your house.

You can't add on to your house.

Limited me, right? You can't really avoid that conflict. It happens. And we would be in the same kind of conflicting area. Well, you got to— if you're not too close to this other house, we don't care until that other house adds on. So we have to really look at what they're able to add on.

So what you're doing, and that is such a great example, because what I see right now by basing the setback on the nearby dwelling, is you are taking their property away from their ability to develop their property away from them. So the person across the fence can develop their property.

Right.

So that's why I think if we could do something more from a property line basis that impacts the property that has it, then we're going to avoid those problems down the road. Because frankly, I'm going to be a little miffed If I buy a house thinking that I'm going to be able to add on, and the city comes and says, oh, by the way, you can't because there's this 12-foot-high dwelling, you know, 10 feet from your property line, and you can't do that now.

We probably want to do something. Maybe we could look at doing something like, uh, we could base a requirement for an accessory dwelling unit like this, not solely on setbacks from property lines. It could have several setback requirements. Requirements, right? Within a certain proximity to your primary dwelling, not further than, for example, and not closer than to a property line, and not closer than— not to the dwelling on the adjacent lot, but to the setback that's adjacent to it, to an adjacent setback line. So, you add, add 10 feet to that line or something and say their, their rear yard setback in the zoning is 25 feet. Your place can't— your new place here. could never be closer than 35 feet or 40 feet to that setback line, so that if they're not built to it now, but they want to in the future, they're not going to have a problem. See what I mean?

I would love to see what that looks like, because right now I'm a little confused by what you just said.

So would I. And I think someone else should write it. Talk to Aaron.

No, I kind of get it. But you know what I'm saying?

Like, if this was the 10-foot requirement, yeah, then you—

the ordinance would say this 10-foot line Affects the setbacks there. Yes, not the location of the house, but the setback that it could meet in the future. Right? That's exactly right. I think we could do that. Um, the question becomes, and we can take a look at how that would, how that would pan out. We'll do the same kind of random samples. And if it looks like it would be— what we only want to be careful of is that it not, um, not fall afoul of the right of public use.

The prohibitive is if they can't do a Minimum 200-square-foot type.

Right.

I mean, you can always go— that's the other thing that can always go small, right? It always goes smaller. As long as we don't fall afoul of whatever unreasonably means here, then we should be okay. And I don't— again, I had some conversations internally as staff about this kind of thing. And just— and it makes sense for the larger groups too. We had them with the Planning Commission as well. Bear in mind that there will be properties, as much as this opens up the ability for 5,800 There are 5,800 lots that are 11,000 square feet or bigger. We haven't found any yet that couldn't accommodate one with what we wrote. And even when we change the writing and make it a little bit more restrictive, we still probably won't find a lot, but there will be some. But the requirement is not that every single lot be allowed to do a detached ADU. And remember that those that do wind up not being eligible for detached ADU, They're still eligible for an internal ADU. They're not barred out of the system. They just might not get to have it be stepped up.

I was gonna say, 'cause that house right there looks like a pretty big house.

You could definitely put one in.

So if I was retired and I'm empty nester and everything, and I complained that, you know, I need to get some additional income, I could easily do an internal ADU in that home, I'm guessing.

Sure.

I have 3 neighbors who have added them onto their homes and we don't have that big of houses.

Yeah, exactly. And these are the maximums. They're not, you know, if it didn't quite fit, you could always shrink that a little bit, do a different unit. Lots of options.

There's an issue that I just thought of with all this, and it's one of these things that why we wish we had more time from the state. So we might need to think of is it has to hook into utilities.

Yeah.

So one reality of utilities, you can have a home like this and where the utility— I don't know if this is a through street or not. They may hook into, say, sewer here. But the only place for this really feasibly to hook into the sewer might be out here. And because of the depth of the sewer, they may want to bring in a whole bunch of fill.

Don't go down that road.

And I think we probably need to look at some of those issues too, that they can't— a detached accessory dwelling unit cannot Raise the grade, right? That's existing grade.

So many phone calls right now on those other homes.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, because when you're putting it into the backyard, oftentimes, especially if you're on a corner lot, the nearest sewer that you can hook into may not be the one that the main home is, or it may, because of topography, at a different elevation. And that, you know, so that's something we're going to have to think through.

We can, we can— there's a, there's a natural place to add that language, Gary, where we, where we create the required statement that you, that, that you can, or the, the allowed statement that we review your utility access and stuff. We'll put it in there about— yeah, great. So it's just hard to do. So I think you should go into timeout.

So you're seeing how the sausage is made in community development with me and Jared.

Sound entertaining.

5 or 6 more months from the state to get it adopted correctly. We're going to swing and we might miss a little bit. We'll fix, but anything we can find in advance, great, because that's perfect. I hadn't thought of that at all. Well, let us take a look. If it's all right, then we'll go back and look at graded height, starting lower at basing setbacks in 3 points from the house itself, from property lines, and from setback lines on other properties. And then grade issues too, Gary. Take a look at that. Any other things that we're missing in there, or does the other stuff work for you?

Jared, this is Quinn. I mentioned this last time we talked about this, but it would just still be helpful for me to understand lessons from cities that have detached ADU ordinances on the books. I'm just really curious and Our ability to estimate what percent of that, those 5,800 lots, um, may be interested in this over time. Um, yeah, and I'm also interested in knowing what is our current number of ADUs, if anybody knows that.

Our current list of detached, we haven't had any, but the internal ADUs. That's a, that's a good question, Quinn. I should have that number in my head and I don't. But I'll get it. Thank you. And then we'd have to distinguish between venues that are licensed and legal and those that are just sort of like volunteers. Seems like it's only a few hundred. They're not as— I mean, I've administered— I think I mentioned this to the Planning Commission. I administered 2 codes previously that both allowed detached accessory dwelling units. I'd never processed one just because they're difficult to do. They're more difficult to do, and they're more expensive. It is getting cheaper. Uh, but we had, you know, 30 or 40. We'd allowed ADUs, internal ADUs, for 10, 15 years. We only had 30 or 40. Orem has a lot comparatively, um, to other cities, I think you'll find. And most of the guys I've talked to in other planning departments that have allowed detached accessory dwelling units, they've got a few. They're not as prevalent as As you'd think, but I'll check around.

I would be curious to know if those were built at the time of construction of the house. Yeah, because we're built out. Ours is going to be all retrofit stuff, right? So that's a whole different—

A lot of, a lot of new home designs come in ready-made for ADUs. They don't necessarily pull the trigger on doing it at first, but they build them. And their, their, their home builder, Ivory, or whoever's doing it, is advising them, you want to do this because in the future you might want to do it. You know, might as well do it now. And they just don't pull the trigger on, on getting the license. And so we do these 2nd kitchen covenants with them instead.

Well, and I'm talking detached.

Yeah, the detached ones. See, it'll all be retrofit.

Everyone too, the forms. I think you were to go to Provo and look at some of their older neighborhoods where they have, like, from the—

oh, good point.

Yeah, over 100 years ago where they have the detached garage that was just naturally Part of the, of the house and the design. And we don't see that as much in Orem as the—

I'll check with— that's a good suggestion.

Thank you. Anybody who wants a tour, I can take you on a tour of areas that have those. See a bunch.

I'd like one, Gary.

Uh, no.

Sounds good to me. Okay, so we'll go back and look at those things and we'll bring it back. Quinn, I'll get those numbers for you and we'll check around with the other cities too. I didn't have a chance to do that yet, but I remember you asked you about it. Uh, the ones that I checked with so far, no success, but I'll check with them.

I just think it will help us understand the scale of what we're dealing with. Um, and, you know, the potential impacts of some of these decisions. I think we're all sensitive to the potential for impacts, particularly as Lynnae was mentioning, on neighbors who don't have any choice about this. But, uh, if it's, if it's really going to be just a very small number over time, I think that might help shape the decisions we make. Great.

Thank you. I'll get that data.

Great.

Anything else, council? Thank you. Yes, Mayor.

Uh, not related to this, but— and we told you we'd come back with some information. Uh, if you remember, the council looked at an ordinance dealing with the radius of noticing that we do. Uh, we do 1,000 feet to go to 2,000 feet. And the question was, what was that? Wasn't a big deal to quickly run the numbers on 2 projects that you just recently dealt with. Remember the Needles property and the home at home?

Thank you.

Home built. Yeah, home built. The noticing at 1,000 feet that we did was $346. If we had gone to 2,000 and noticed it, it would be $850. And then the property that the city owns, uh, that rezoned at 1,000 feet, the cost was $443. If we had done 2,000-foot radius, it would have been $949.

It's like about $500.

It's slightly more than double.

Okay.

But the costs are relatively Uh, small, and for better noticing and, uh, visibility and transparency for the community. It— I don't see it terrible.

So, 2,000 feet then?

Yeah, and that's, that's what we did. So just, we told you we'd come back with those numbers and just—

I appreciate that.

Let you know.

All right, Gary, that's great. And I'm delighted that those are small numbers. Does that include staff time as well?

Uh, that's just posted, but it doesn't, uh, less than an hour.

Yeah, no, it's not a huge deal.

Yeah.

I mean, having done that part of having that chapter in my life too, being at that pay grade where I slap mailing labels on.

You should see us stuff envelopes.

And stuff envelopes. I'm a good envelope stuffer.

Something to see.

We bought a machine.

Get AI to do that. What is wrong with this place?

Yeah, we bought a machine that takes the flyer, stuffs it, folds it and stuffs it into the envelope, and then we just mail it.

You name it the Intern?

We affectionately call it Jared.

The worst, the worst part of it, of stuffing the envelopes, is actually how the machine is good enough that the worst part is the little sticker labels on all the envelopes. It's the only thing worse than putting those stickers on the envelopes is trying to get technology to do an actual mail merge. That'll— nobody can make that happen. I don't believe it's ever been done.

Thank you.

Reese is the queen of mail merging. You can do that? Come fix us.

That's right.

I just pulled up our AD list from the website. There's 859 ADs.

Oh, hey, good deal. Oh, wow.

That's wonderful.

And then in our last business, Our building permit report for the month of— this is through May.

Out of 20 new single-family homes, 5 of them are being built with an ADU in it.

That means that they applied for an ADU. The other ones could be fitted for one but not applying.

Correct. Yeah, that means they're building them with—

they're building it with the building, uh, home builders now. Design a home so that it either has the ADU in it when they build it, or it can very easily be converted.

So that's what's happening behind me. All 6 of them have the basement entrance, but they haven't put in the dividing door. Right?

So, and that's easy to do.

And then if they want to, they're gonna put that door, and then you have 2 spaces.

All right, thank you.

Thanks.

Um, let's quickly go through our evening's agenda. We've got several, several items under, uh, Mayor's Report, items referred by Council. We have a presentation on National Night Out, and then we speak— that's the only one— and then personal appearances. And then we have consent items, which is, uh, for approval of the meeting minutes, and then the appointment of Brian Waite to the Events Advisory Commission.

He will probably be here this evening. We could maybe acknowledge him, have him stand or something.

Okay, then we have a scheduled public hearing. It's a green zone that was before us a little while back, and we— and the applicant asked if they could come back and put a road, Geneva Road. If you remember that, I do have a question about this. But I'd rather ask it here than take up time out there.

I'm right back here.

Sorry.

Okay. Um, I've been looking at the PRD ordinance, and the PRD ordinance requires certain building materials and different front elevations.

Yeah.

Is that still within what the state law allows?

PRDs are exempt from that state.

Okay.

In a PRD, when they're signing up for it, You can make them do whatever.

Okay, that was my question. I just wanted to make sure that—

good question—

that—

so it looks like they still need—

they need 60— 40% on the backside. They haven't shown that, right?

They haven't shown that correctly, so they'll put something on there.

Okay.

All right.

Proud of them for getting over the road hurdle that I didn't want to hassle them too much about the 40% on the backside.

So, yeah, that one—

I have a question on that.

Okay.

And probably here's a good place. Um, ends up masonry fence between the commercial residential. I didn't really see that mentioned.

Yeah, that would be part of it. It's, it's got to be part of the plan that they do. We will get that in the site plan. It didn't show on this, on the concept plan very well.

And then do we require CC&Rs?

We don't, except that because the PRD will have the shared lot lines, the shared— they'll have the 0 lot lines and they'll have the shared parking. They'll have to have one anyway, because they're going to share property for the parking. They'll have to have an HOA to govern at least that.

Oh, yeah.

So they need to know that.

Require it, but they'll— that's there.

And they'll be told that.

Oh, yeah.

I had that conversation.

Never mind.

Yeah, well, that's not surprising that they didn't understand that.

Okay. Um, and then my other— oh, here's— okay. So we had Appendix KK. That was Farmhaven.

Well, there's actually a whole bunch of It's all of Appendix KK contains all of the PRD site concept plans.

Oh, okay. So I guess my question is, do you— are you keeping the Farmhaven iteration in there? And we're showing that it was replaced.

Yeah, we'll exit out.

They don't—

but they'll both be there. We'll be there, but the one— Farmhaven should be X'd out because it won't be in effect after tonight.

But if someone wants to go back and reference it, they can go see. Yeah, they could find that in our— I had that question. Okay, last question on our visitor parking. You said we're within—

Yeah, 2.5 is required. There's 7.

Because I noticed from Western— from Farmhaven to Westerly Way, they reduced it by half.

The parking?

The parking.

From the— yeah.

The percent— the density is the same, but the parking's—

I didn't analyze the parking.

So they were just adding more, it sounds like. Farmhaven. Okay, so we're— but we're good on all of that.

It does meet the code requirement for— Thank you.

Any other questions on this item in here? Any other questions on anything that's on the agenda? We do not have a closed meeting. Well, we do have a closed meeting. Good, right? So we got 15 minutes left, I think. Well, that wraps up the work session then. We'll see you all in the, in the regular meeting.

Look forward to it.

Thanks, everyone. You have a motion to adjourn? Oh, I motion to adjourn.

No, I motion to adjourn. Is there a second? All right, all those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Thank you.

You need to make sure that we have at least one person online, so we have 4.

No, we got 4. We're ready. I said aye.

And I said aye.

And I said aye.

May as well.

It's a weird, it's a weird thing.

Hey, Pete, recording's off.

I gotta move in.

So frustrating.

So it's not recording in here.

I gotta move it over.

Like, give me a job.

You know what, I think I'm having flashes. That's going to be something.

Anytime Steve—

when I was at Community Action, yeah, I had flashes of— it was never all fun because of the responsibilities I had.

Yeah, I mean, see, I don't have risks and responsibilities now.

You can change that.

As far as a CEO or something.

Test, test, test.

Feels too tight up here. When we have 3 chairs, sometimes we need them, but most of the time we don't.

Oh no, you can't really stick it there.

For ALJ, I just stick it under there because nobody sits down.

You want me to roll it out?

Yes. Hey, should I try it?

Are you on Zoom right now?

I'm on YouTube.

Oh, wait, I'm gonna get a message.

Oh, sorry.

It's just my laptop. Not coming through the speakers.

Yeah, maybe I could change my speakers.

Let me try this.

No, you don't get anything if it's on custom. Wait, am I on display? Carlo, make it in. I don't think it works.

How are you?

What time are we at?

Can you hear me okay? Just testing.

Yeah, we got you. Thank you, Councillor.

I'll put it back on mute.

All right, put me back on.

We're gonna try it again.

We keep the plan. We're watching Taking My Son to Japanese Daycare.

Yes. We're trying to talk about how sounds— and right now it's not doing that.

He keeps trying to run away.

Just, uh, meeting with them was really nice.

Did it.

Okay.

I think they're there.

Oh, yes.

So, prayer, or what you believe, where do you want us to—

you just come up here.

Come on, little buddy. All right, good evening. I'd like to welcome you to this evening's Orem City Council meeting. Tonight is, um, it's still July 28th, as it was this morning, 2026. I'm going to call the meeting to order. I want to acknowledge that Council Members Kilpack, Muehlstein, and Meekum are joining us electronically, and so we do have everybody here this evening. Um, we'll go ahead and have the invocation and inspirational thought by Mark McComber and Pledge of Allegiance by Kim McComber.

Our Father in Heaven, we are grateful for the great blessing that we have to live in this favored land. We're grateful to celebrate this year the 250th anniversary of our founding.

We are grateful to Thee for raising up our founding fathers who established liberty and freedom here.

We pray that Thou would bless us in our efforts to keep this Republic and to keep our freedoms and make the future bright for the next generation. We are grateful to celebrate this month as well, the pioneers who came and sacrificed and built a wonderful society that we benefit from. We're grateful for those who have served the city of Orem and those who serve now, and pray that Thou would bless them in their deliberations. And we pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Amen.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you for the, um, the invocation and for leading us in the pledge. Appreciate it. All right, Council, we have one item under Mayor's Report and Items Referred by the Council, and it's a presentation on National Night Out. Our presenters will be Lieutenant Blake Fan and Cameron Wilson. So, turn the time over to them.

There we go. Thanks for having us back. I still don't like speaking in public.

I was very excited.

We're just here to give you a little presentation and a formal invitation to our National Night Out event.

Go ahead.

So yeah, National Night Out, as you can see up there, the purpose is to enhance the relationship between the community and law enforcement. It's a chance for us to get together and have fun with the public and let them interact with us, us interact with them, and just have that rapport, that fun time.

It happens all around the country on the first Tuesday in August. Orem does it better than anyone else.

We're biased.

Yeah, of course we're heavily biased, but we're right. So it doesn't matter. Um, this is also our formal apology to the parks department for ruining your grass last year.

It won't happen again.

Yeah, there's no, no, no foam gun.

Our fun little foam machine. We thought it was great. They had to resod and we had no idea. So Not happening again, I promise.

Yeah, we killed the grass for sure.

Um, it's next Tuesday, August 4th, from 5 PM to 8 PM in the City Center Park.

So you see, look, look how happy Blake was right there in his element, just having fun.

Super fun. So yeah, some of the, some of the stuff we have planned, again, we're gonna have a dunk tank. Uh, we've got swap vehicles, food trucks, uh, fingerprinting. We have a helicopter.

Is it a Black Hawk?

It is a Black Hawk this year. Okay, we're gonna have the drunk goggles. The K-9 team will be there. We are going to crush cars again, face paint, 9 Square, all that stuff up there and much more. We do have a bunch of other community partners that will be there as well with booths, handing out stuff and interacting with the public as well.

Yeah, you can come dunk an officer. I love that picture.

Lieutenant Giles's face is just I did that last year, and if it's over 100 degrees like it's been, I will be getting in there again.

A couple years ago, they complained because the water was too cold. So the fire department's coming early so the water can heat up with the sun. So they'll have a nice— Oh my goodness. I've done it. I've done a dunk tank before, and no, it was bracing. It's— there's nothing like that little tiny seat. Just go. Yeah, then you're toast.

It's fun. It's refreshing.

It's very refreshing.

We have some awesome community partner booths coming this year. We have a very supportive community. They love to be involved with things like this. It's a pretty stacked list.

They're all going to do their own activities and just get out there with the public.

And because ours is the best, we have a bunch of outside agencies that choose to come to ours instead of neighboring cities. So, we've got Highway Safety, UVU, BYU, UTA, National Guard, and the Department of Commerce also coming this year.

Awesome.

this year for us.

So absolutely.

Then you can see the list of community partners, and that's not all of them. I think we ended up with 26, 25 or 26 that committed. And so this is everyone's official invitation, August 4th.

And it seems like there's some fun little giveaways that these partners have.

Yes, they all bring—

Nintendo, the guy from Nintendo was like, I'm going to set up some gaming consoles.

We're going to give away this and this.

They're so excited. So we've got some really stellar community partners that love to be there and support.

So it'll be a good time.

Do you guys have any questions or anything you need from us?

It's a great event. I remember attending last year and I'll be there this year.

I do have one ask. I'm wondering if you could reach out to Wasatch Mental Health that has counselors in some of our schools. I was in a meeting with the new school district and there were some counselors there that would have had some of their students that were afraid of the— our police were typically afraid of the police, the uniform. So I don't know if we could maybe invite them, you know, to come and see our officers in this great environment. You guys are always very friendly, very kind, very fun. So they can play volleyball with y'all and get you in the dugout. So that would be maybe an ask.

We touched base a couple weeks ago at the Reading with Police event that we did. And Wasatch Behavioral is coming and setting up a booth and has sent it out to their clinicians to invite their groups to come.

Oh, thank you. You're already on top of that.

I was going to say, we chatted about it. The little behavioral health specialist in me was so excited to merge those 2 worlds.

So it was a great idea.

Perfect.

So thank you for doing that.

Yeah, no problem.

Anything else?

Anything else, Council? Anything else, those online or virtually? Guess not. Thank you. We'll see you next Tuesday.

Right.

The next item on the agenda is our personal time for personal appearances. Um, time has been set aside for the public to express their ideas, concerns, and comments on items not scheduled as public hearings on the agenda. Those wishing to speak are encouraged to show respect for those who serve the city. Comments should focus on issues concerning the city, and those wishing to speak have signed up already, and I have this— I have the list here. And so we'll go ahead and, and start with, with the public comments. Um, the first, um, is Chris Hammond, and after Ms. Hammond, Rennie Reeves. Welcome, and thank you for your email. I want to let you know I got you— I received your email. Thank you.

Um, I want to take a little bit of a different take tonight. I am grateful to live in America where we have freedom of speech. We have the opportunity to do what we're doing here tonight, and I just wanted to give a little bit of background. In my 40s, I was left with 4 children to raise on my own, and my father encouraged me to invest in real state, and that is what I have done. And as I've looked at what we're doing and how things are moving along, I want to express the fact that the police department is trying to build bridges, and I'm concerned that we're making walls in the neighborhoods by saying that things are not right and you can't do this at your property. And, uh, I, I just want to deal with things that are true. So some of the comments have been we have short-term rentals, so we can't have kids in school. Well, there is nothing— there's no correlation between that. The reason that we're decreasing the number of kids in school is because my grandkids don't want to have kids. They don't want to spend the money. They don't see this as a thing to do. And it's not just here in Utah, it's across the nation. I, as a real estate agent, will look and say, Affordability, which we talk about all the time. We can't afford it, can't do this. And so I recommend that someone build a home and have an apartment so they can afford to be there, whether it's a young family or whether it's a senior citizen, that that's the way you can stay in a home. That's the way you can have property. And I think we need to look at what are the critical issues and the legal things. We have personal property rights and we want to look at those. And the Constitution says we are, as a government, supposed to protect the people. We're not supposed to oversee them and tell them how to do things. And I hope that we'll consider that. It is important that we look at the consequences of making false statements. And I don't think anything has been said about people coming forward and saying, that kid was in my neighborhood and they They came across my fence and were in my driveway to get their ball, and so that's offensive, and I'm going to call the cops on them. And there— we've got to do something to say you can't falsely report an infringement on someone's rights and have no consequence for that, and do multiple, multiple where the police are being called and there's nothing to stand up for that. There is no correlation between short-term rentals and housing availability. 185 homes in Orem are available. Over— up to 600 rentals are available. Having the 30 or 40 short-term rentals that are standalone homes on the market is not going to change that and not change any of those kinds of things. I can go on and on. You guys have received my emails. I hope that we can come to something where we build bridges and we have neighbors that enjoy each other and can come to some kind of a compromise on how we deal with our neighborhood. Thank you.

All right, so can I ask, Chris, are you sending your emails to me?

No.

You're not?

No.

All right, thank you. All right, uh, Ms. Reeves, you're up, and then after you, um, Keith Walker.

Hi, my name is Rennie Reeves, and I live in South Lorem, just off of 2000 South.

About a year ago, I came to a city council meeting and expressed concern about crossing 2000 South. Since then, you guys have put in time and effort and getting a crosswalk installed. My neighbors and I feel a lot safer. Cars stop if they see us waiting, which didn't happen before. My neighbors have told me often how grateful they are. I wanted to come to this meeting to tell you thank you for listening and taking action.

It's made a big difference to my neighbors and I.

Thank you guys so much.

Thank you. Yes, go ahead.

Remy, you have grown like a foot since last year. I'm so happy. I just want to— for those of you who are new on the council, she got a petition in her neighborhood. She brought it very professionally and presented that to the city council, and you are just an example for all of our residents to come and advocate. So thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Up next is Mr.

Keith Walker, and after him Thank you, Mayor and City Council, for letting me address you this evening. I will touch base on several items or issues that are all intertwined and need to be addressed by you to keep Orem City the Family City USA to be proud of. The city is currently paving streets in North Orem, which we are very grateful for, at a great cost to the city. The issue is trailers parked along the street that have not been moved, that have been there for 5 months or longer, that have been paved around and leaving an incomplete and a poor-looking job. I have a car parked across the street from me now that's not been moved for 3 months. My best guess, it will not be moved unless we call somebody to tow it, but we'll address that. But it'll be paved around probably again sometime later this week. The underlying issue in this issue, and some of it, is in a 2-block area that I live in by 4 blocks long, area of 6 square blocks, I have 3 sober living rehab homes, 1 Airbnb, 11 houses with apartments not legal in the city, renting rooms in houses and basements. No private entrances, no kitchen, just renting rooms. The neighbors— I have a neighbor that has 7 cars at the home all the time. They're decent neighbors, but it's obvious they're not just a family with 7 cars. The question is, what are we going to do about these issues that are destroying the appearance and backbone of the city of Orem and the Family City USA? I also have another kind of a pet peeve in my back for years and years. I have the duplexes and fourplexes in Orem city, or what these other things are mentioned, are an issue. I have family members that involved in these, and I have a 9— I'm going to share something. I have a 92-year-old dad that will not let me help him with his apartment half the time because of his stubbornness and want to do it himself. But the issue I have is these fourplexes and duplexes are all over the city. They're income-producing properties within the city. The city should require these properties to be— which house many families— to be taken care of by their landlords, not just called, called on to rent and gain income from with no obligation to their tenants. No lawns, just weed patches, junkyards, junk areas. And I know some of this is the tenants that they have to deal with. All of the items concerned— all of the items committed on this evening, comment on this evening, are income-producing properties or businesses in one way or another. Their owner— their owners only care about their dollars, no return on investment to the city or no return to the community. The families are forced to live in conditions that are not the best, and some of it's the its problems. I encourage you to be careful what you do over the next several weeks. These businesses in the city generally become a big eyesore to the, to the future of the city, that everyone is, is, uh, preaching for better housing options because long-term they are not. And there's areas in the cities, in Provo, Vineyard, American Fork, that you can go find with housing and cars and stuff all Over that you can't get around. And I just encourage you to be careful what you do over the next few months.

Thank you. Mr. Walker, would it be okay if we had one of the staff members contact you about your concerns specifically?

I would like to do something to try to help some of that without— you know, we try to be decent neighbors, but we don't want to complain about some of the issues, but we would like to try to help some of it.

Thank you. Okay, Mr. Bybee, would you work that? Thank you. All right, Katie is up, and after Katie is I think it's John. So, welcome.

So, my name is Katie, and I just wanted to address the short-term rental issue as well.

What's your last name, Katie?

It's Brooks.

Brooks. Yep.

Um, so, I'm gonna take a more personal take on it, and I hope you guys all forgive me. So 2 years ago, we had to evacuate our home because we had a high-velocity rainstorm that hit the back of our house, and it was mitigated improperly. So it wasn't The mitigation area, it wasn't sealed off properly, so it ended up spreading mold spore count throughout our whole entire home. I have asthma and mast cell, and my son does as well. And after they had taken all the levels, it was twice, twice the level of what was considered high, and we were asked to evacuate.

Our home.

I, on a very practical note, natural disasters happen to all of us, right? So what I'm asking you guys to do is just look at everything on a very practical note. We ended up moving 10 times in 7 months as we kept waiting for the insurance company to, um, hopefully get involved. Having local Airbnbs provided, um, to keep the community— we have 3 children I had— I have a— they were 11, 12, and 13 at the time. And by having Airbnbs in the community, we were able to keep our kids at their local school. We didn't have to move up to Salt Lake while we were doing the mitigation and the rebuild. Everything's done now. Like, literally, it's taken us 2 years. We just finished our kitchen this last week. But I just want you guys to take a closer look because I—

I'm sorry.

Even my son, he has a couple of friends where they also had to move for several months out of their home too. And by getting rid of all the Airbnbs, you are taking away access to actually local Orem residents that need to be able to access the schools, that need to be able to access the help. My son has like he, in his 504 plan, like he has to have an air filter system in every single room because when he has a reaction, it can last up to 72 hours. So basically what mast cell is, is you have too much of a histamine response and your body has a hard time breaking it down. So for us, like we were definitely more concerned. And then another thing is also, I really love the diversity that there'll be. B&Bs bring. I love seeing the Jewish, um, traditional Jewish people with their ringlets. I love that there are knitting company knitting communities that can come to these Airbnbs. And I also really appreciate, um, Airbnbs that also have ADA accommodations for those that need it. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. I'm sorry you went through all that. I'm glad, I'm glad it's all— I think that was Quite the storm.

We're still in the process, but I just wanted to let you guys know, as an Orem resident, having Airbnbs is a very practical option.

All right, thank you. So yeah, right, next up, is it, is it John? Okay, and after, after John is Carol Lee Wolfley.

That's my wife. And I, I didn't know she was going to talk about that, but we are super grateful for her aunt who lives here, another family that let us live in their home. But we did have to use some Airbnbs temporarily for our children, our family, to keep us somewhat united during a tough time. Um, I'm not talking about that, but obviously I'm here to support, uh, a good neighbor of ours that does have a large Airbnb.

And I strongly urge you to look at, you know, sizes of Airbnbs.

You'd obviously Obviously, you don't want 100 people in 1,000 square foot, but if somebody can accommodate it and it's not causing any problems, that you take that into consideration while you're looking at this process. And our neighbors that do have an Airbnb, actually a couple of them, you know, they don't cause any problems, and I don't see an issue. And I would, I would be here in the alternative of that. If I did see a lot of issues, I'd probably be here fighting for the opposite of that. I haven't seen that in my area.

Thank you.

where I live, and I strongly urge you to take that into consideration.

I live—

and where I live in Orem, on a different subject, I'd love to just kind of bring up— I have no idea what's going to happen. The canal that is no longer in use now, I'd love to know what's going to be happening to that property since it runs through the backyard of my home along with a lot of other people's. And I know that mine is— the canal in my backyard is Dry and nothing's other than some, maybe some debris. But I've noticed that now there's lots of weeds growing and other things, and I'd love to know what's going on with that too. But I'm here to support and, and make our, our Orem family USA.

Thank you.

All right, thank you. Um, I'll just quickly address the canal. The canal company has decided not to run water through it anymore.

Yes.

And the gentleman, Mr. McGinn, if you would like to speak with him or give him your contact information. He has more information about a study that's going on right now to see what options are available for that property. We don't own the property. It's like right now the canal company remains the ones in charge of it. And so—

Yeah, and where I live, from my understanding, it lines up with Provo and Orem. So you're dealing with 2 different cities.

Okay, I don't know where you live.

I live on Palisade Drive. So when it runs through the backside of Palisade Drive on the maps—

Oh, that might be the Provo Bench Canal. Is that the one that's down below?

Yeah.

Okay. Are we doing a study on the Provo Bench Canal as well?

Yeah.

Okay, then that's— yeah, he'd be the one to talk to.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you. All right, Carol Wolfley, and then Judy Christensen after Ms. Wolfley. I do not see— is that you? I see someone waving. Oh, she's just waving. Oh, she's waving to you. Okay, well, okay, well, she's— since she's not here, we'll go ahead and— Oh, in the nick of time. All right, you're up. You want to catch your breath? Would you like to have someone go, go next and then you can catch your breath for a second?

Okay.

Okay, um, Judy Christensen, if you, um, come up, and then Carol Lee after Ms. Christensen.

Um, Yes, I'm Judy Christensen. I moved here into Orem about 36 years ago, um, came down to Utah for I really love it here. I love the people. I love the values. I love the beauty, and it's awesome. And I'm really happy to have cool things to do, you know, like next Tuesday, have all of our, you know, this fun community activity.

Like, I agree with the first speaker about building bridges in the community.

Thank you.

I happen to be part of a group, a volunteer group, who believes that local governments should not use government resources, staff, facilities, any of the local— of our local things that we pay for here as a city for— to carry out federal immigration enforcement. Or, um, yeah, and I just am here to ask To please— I am hoping that we can pass a formal resolution prohibiting the use of municipal funds, staff time, facilities for federal immigration enforcement activities. I'm hoping that we publicly can direct our local police departments in writing to cease collaboration with ICE in any form, including participation in joint operations, information sharing, and notifications. I have friends and family who this directly affects, and I want to feel safe in the community. I value all people, and I hope that we can join together in love in this community. Thank you.

All right, thank you. All right, and after Ms. Wolfley, we have Ethan Stauffer.

Right.

Welcome.

Thank you, and thanks for the, the breath.

Um, I've lived in—

I've had my home in Orem for a zillion years, and I love Orem. Um, I am concerned about the city, um, having given short-term rental, um, licenses and is trying to change that. That is a real concern to me. We don't do that.

You know, if you wanna change the rules down the road, more power to you.

But you grandfather in what you've already done. People make plans and they make important decisions based on this, and then for you guys to come and change it here, that's really not fair. And I, I, I love Orem and I love our neighborhoods. I am— I have done everything from being Uh, married couple, having kids, raising them in our schools, doing the— um, now I'm a widow and life changes. And, and having short-term rentals is a way to be able to afford expenses when life does change. And I cannot see Any reason that we would want to change that. We know that there's always people, um, that wherever, whatever situation, there's always one bad apple, but that doesn't make all the rest. And so I would really hope that you would honor the commitments that Orem has already made to people and to allow short-term rentals to be totally a good thing. I know my sister, she stayed in one when she was waiting for— as a missionary, she had, you know, gotten everything sold in Idaho and came here and stayed in a short-term rental. It was wonderful. It helped her tremendously. She went on with her life. I've had lots of short-term people People come and go, and it, it's that bridge that helps people and sustains not only them but us too.

So thank you.

Thank you, and I'm sorry for your loss. I'm a fellow widow, so yes. All right, Ethan, um, you're up. Welcome.

Hello, Mayor and council people. I spoke at the last meeting as well. For those of you who remember, I spoke about the flock cameras that have been placed up around the city. I still have more concerns about that, and I would like to share those as well as expound on an issue that I find disconnected and that I'm fortunate has already been spoken about with the issue of ICE and immigration enforcement. So first, to elaborate on Flock, for those who do not remember or maybe weren't here, that is a private company that makes contracts with cities and police departments to put up these security surveillance cameras around the city with no disclosure of where they are. The only way we have to know where these cameras are placed is a crowdsourced campaign to find them. These cameras are AI-powered to license or to register any license plates or make, model, color, bumper stickers, even scratches on your car. If you pass these cameras, are registered in their AI database and become a searchable data point. To use this database, this private database, law enforcement does not require a warrant of any kind whatsoever. All it requires is a search reason, which for thousands of these searches has simply been the word test, which we know through independent reporting has been abused to follow people such as ex-partners or simple personal interest searches. I find this to be an insane breach of civil privacy since anyone driving past these cameras are being logged into a database they had no say in existing and have no way to remove themselves from for simply going about their life, going about the city. People have said, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. But if I send someone in a package, I'm not putting it in a clear Tupperware. And it isn't because there's something criminal inside. It's because it's just for the recipient. It's a question of privacy. It's not a question of criminality. The way that this intersects with ICE, however, is because ICE has been known to also use this database. To track down some of their targets. There are records of over 4,000 nation and statewide lookups by city police departments on the behalf of ICE, with reasons listed as immigration, ICE, ICE and ERO, which is the Enforcement and Removal Operations, illegal immigration, ICE warrant. You understand the trend going on there. I would like to reiterate, ICE themselves has no contract with FLOC. They are Police departments to do these searches for them, and police departments are choosing to and complying to do these. There is no legal or any contract reason that they have to, but these police departments are choosing to assist them. I'm running low on time, so I'll speed up from now. 70.6% of all ICE detainees have no criminal convictions whatsoever. This is people that are being held against their will with no conviction. And I do not think we should be assisting ICE in getting more of them. Additionally, I want to remember that this database is global and private. Even if our cops choose not to communicate with ICE and help them, they can go to a different city, and since it's all the same database, the cops there can do the same and betray our Orem citizens. Thank you.

Thank you. And that concludes our personal appearances. Oh, yes, Councilmember Millett has a question.

I just wanted to ask our attorney.

Is Steve here?

Oh, there you are. So, Steve, has the City of Orem issued short-term rental licenses?

Uh, no, we've never had a short-term rental license that we've issued to anyone.

We do have residential rental dwelling licenses that we issue to anybody who wants to rent their dwelling.

Primarily, that's going to be long-term rentals, but could encompass people who have done short-term rentals as well.

But we do not have any specific short-term dwelling rental license.

All right, Ms. Wolfley, would you do me a favor? If you would like some more information and have more discussion, you did not have your contact information. If you want to leave your phone number with, with Teresa's city recorder. We could, um, maybe have an opportunity to, to elaborate further on that if that's, if that's something you were interested in doing. Just go ahead and leave your, your contact information with them. Thank you. Um, all right, Council, we have 2 consent items this evening. The first is the approval of the meeting minutes of July 14th, 2026, and the 2nd item is an appointment to the Events Advisory Commission. Brian Waite. Is Brian here this evening? All right, well, we welcome you. And, well, I guess I gotta wait till after we vote to welcome you. Not to get ahead of myself, but council, I would entertain a motion to approve the consent items.

So moved.

I hear a motion. Is there a second? All right, the second. All right, we'll start with, with you, Councilmember Millett.

Aye.

And I vote aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Right. Um, Councilmember Meekum.

Aye.

Councilmember Muelstein.

Aye.

Councilmember Kilpatrick.

Aye.

All right, I knew that was going to be the vote, but welcome. We're so glad to have you on our, on our commission and being willing to serve our community. Okay, thank you. Right, the next item on our agenda is a public hearing. It is for an ordinance amending Article 22-5-3A and the zoning map of the City of Orem by changing the zone of the property located generally at 1875 South Geneva Road from OS-5 Open Space to PRD Planned Residential Development and to amend the concept plan found in Appendix KK— excuse me, site plan Farmhaven— to include the subject property and amend the project layout. And so our presenter this evening is our Planning Director, Jared Hall. And after Mr. Hall has completed his presentation, invite the applicants to come up if you would like to say anything else.

Thank you. That introduction of the item is quite a mouthful. I know. So, yeah, it is. It is this, and the reason— part of the reason that it's so long is that this actual— this request has 2 parts. Um, it is both a change of zoning to rezone the subject property that you see here, this 2.9 acres that's currently in the OS-5 zone. The applicants would like to rezone this piece, and then the second part is to add it to this portion of property that's part of the PRD, or planned residential development, and modify that current concept plan that goes with that PRD to include this property that's being rezoned or asked— or being requested for rezoning. So this went to the Planning Commission for a public hearing back in March and April. The Planning Commission voted to recommend approval with a condition that the new PRD would include a direct public right-of-way connection to Geneva Road. That's down here. The concept plan at the time did not have such a connection. When the Planning Commission forwarded it, the City Council heard it at a hearing in May, and it— again, the connection, public right-of-way connection to Geneva Road was not present. The council voted at the time to continue the the item forward to give the applicants a chance to look at a concept plan that would include that and come back if that were possible. The applicants have done that and come back with a concept plan that does include a connection to Geneva Road. So we'll review that tonight and talk about that. But I want to give just the background again because the public hearing is part of the agenda and I wanted to make sure that this is all Again, in people's minds, because it has been a little time. Uh, as we stated, this is the parcel that's being requested for rezone. This is in the OS-5 zone. Uh, the property to the east here is the Whitestone Estate subdivision that was recently approved. This is Payton Crossing to the south, and this is the land in the PRD zone that would be— Um, can— that would be combined with this property if it's rezoned to form a new Uh, called Westerly Way instead of Farmhaven. Um, this is in— this is a section from the general plan, the land use map. Um, this property, that's the subject property, is in the low density residential southwest category. Um, the change is in line with the general plan's designation. There's no conflict there. Uh, the existing Farmhaven concept, again, that did have initially a connection to Geneva Road. That was part of the reason for the request on the Planning Commission. Part in the council review. Uh, the existing plan was for 25 smaller lots. Uh, they're called— we call them cottage lots. It was Farmhaven Cottages, uh, 25 lots and this road internally circulating and then going out to Geneva. Um, the concept that came through on May 12th, uh, that has been redesigned was this 44 town— or sorry, 44 twin home lots without the connection to Geneva. The new redesign that does include a connection to Geneva Road. We're going to see how many times I have to say Geneva Road tonight. You can start counting now for those of you playing any kind of games with it. Um, this is a redesign of the twin home lots, although it's fairly similar. It contains that same circulation pattern inside, uh, 40 units. They did lose some, some twin homes to make that connection happen. Um, but there's again some additional parking. Uh, for, um, for guests and visitors. Uh, there are 2-car garages in all of these units and driveways for 2 cars. Um, the parking standard for PRDs, uh, multifamily housing is 2.5 parking spaces per unit. This is about 2.7 if you count them all together, uh, not including the driveways. Those would be an addition, uh, but just the garages and these extra parking spaces. Uh, a 6-foot perimeter fence is required. Uh, for a project like this, that would need to be part of the site planning. And that brings me to a point, um, that I want to make now, so I don't forget. Uh, this is a request for a zone change and a concept plan that goes with that PRD. Um, but those things are not approvals for building. Uh, it would still require— what's being planned here in concept would still require Planning Commission approval of a site plan for the multifamily nature, because there are attached housing units and a subdivision. to make these twin homes. So, it'll still go through some iterations, um, with Planning Commission, but those plans need to be based on, uh, this concept plan if that's approved as part of the zoning. That makes sense. Just want to make sure that's in everybody's heads as we go through this. Uh, the roads are all public right-of-way. So these are all, um, or what we call sublocal streets. That's the design, uh, buffered sidewalk, curb and gutter, park strip. Um, and then this road out to Geneva to provide better circulation. That does a lot of good things in terms of traffic. Uh, it allows And access to a westerly road for 2 different subdivisions besides the one at hand tonight. Um, their only access from this subdivision out in the other direction would be out along 850 West to 2000 South. Again, the subdivision to the east here is Whitestone Estates, was recently approved. There's a stubbed connection to Whitestone Estates, and this initial 850 West connection has always been part of the plan. Uh, that would continue to be part of the plan, providing good access for all the lots that are proposed. Uh, these are the elevations again. I think it was, it was mentioned before this backside under PRD rules. This needs to have 40%, um, stone like the front sides. Uh, that'll need to be added when the site plan goes through. We'll assure that happens. These are twin homes. They're 3-bedroom, 3-bath units, single stories with basements. Um, they do meet the height requirements of the PRD as well. And that is my presentation. If you have any questions for me tonight.

All right, thank you, council. Any questions for Mr. Hall?

Um, can you please explain to us again, and I know that we've been through this before, but maybe for newer members of the public that haven't seen this, um, what the connection between the current PRD, uh, zone and the Autism Academy is and how this new area relates to both of those?

Great. That's a, that's a great question. Let me go back up to the site plan here. This property is owned by the Autism Academy, uh, the folks that own and operate the Autism Academy, and they are the applicants In this case, they were for Farmhaven as well. They maintain ownership of it. They would like to subdivide this to provide some housing for folks that are participating in programs at the Autism Academy as part of that. It wouldn't be exclusive to those folks, as I understand it, but it would provide some— it's been designed with those folks in mind. And the connection to the Autism Academy is really through some access to this road that'll come out, but there's no direct connections from the PRD. to the functioning of the Autism Academy. They don't depend on each other for parking or for drainage. They do benefit from, from those connections, but they don't depend wholly on each other for those things. Does that answer your question?

Thank you.

All right, council, any other questions?

Mayor, could I ask you a question?

Oh, okay, go ahead, Councilmember Meekum, and then Councilmember Millett.

Okay.

Um, Jared, I'm just wondering if you could tell us anything more about the connection to Geneva Road. Is it a 2-way connection? I'm just wondering how traffic might flow onto Geneva Road in that particular space if people are going to be turning from Geneva Road left onto that road, or anything else you can tell us about that connection.

That's a good question. My understanding is this is a full connection, so it would be full turn movements. UDOT has approved— UDOT has reviewed and approved that. I'm glad you asked because I should have mentioned that. And that is part of the review. This did go to UDOT. It took a while to get back to us all because it had to get UDOT approval, because right now this is a state road. This would be full turn movements. It's a good access for all these folks to get out that direction should they need to. Um, yeah, anything else there?

That's very helpful.

Thank you. Thank you.

Um, yeah, just— and that was one of my questions, if we'd heard back from UDOT on that. So glad to hear that. Working out for them. And then the other 2 connections to the east.

Yes.

Those are just tying right into the other development, the Whitestone.

Into existing subdivisions.

What's the status of Whitestone right now?

Whitestone is—

Have they pulled any permits or—

They have not pulled permits yet.

Infrastructure?

There are 2 phases of the subdivision are in recording right now.

Okay. So do they have— what does that mean? Do they have infrastructure in yet?

I don't believe the infrastructure is in yet, but it will be soon. I think it's underway.

Okay.

And the recording is probably not far off.

So they're, they're moving forward.

Yeah.

So this should all probably go pretty close together.

There's not really a delay on the Whitestone project. It's moving forward currently. It just takes a while to get everything done. They're recording and building.

Right. Thank you. Um, the applicants here this evening invite you to come up and introduce yourself. And if you'd like to add any additional information, you're welcome to do so.

Um, thank you.

And first, if I can clarify a couple of things, there is only one access to the east into Whitestone. One of those is a dead end, so there's just one going east.

Also, the intention is not to sell these homes to those who are participating in the clinic. This is open to the public. There isn't a requirement that they have access to our facilities there. It would be great if, if they do, but we already have a massive waiting list for people trying to get in. And so to qualify to have a home there, to already be in, uh, as a client at the academy, is not likely.

Thank you. Appreciate those, those clarifications. Any other questions for the applicant?

Right.

Hearing none, I'll go ahead and— this is a public hearing, so if you've come here this evening to speak to this, this item on the agenda, you're welcome to come up now. I ask you to state your name and limit your comments to 3 minutes.

Good evening.

Hello.

Hi, Pamela Mace.

I'm on 800 North, so just right there on the main streets.

Um, just, I needed an understanding clarification. Was originally it was going to be for autistic, is going to be built as an autistic community, and I'm understanding now that it's not going to be an autistic community. Just clarification, not an argument, just an understanding.

Okay, all right, go ahead.

Thank you. I, I probably should have clarified a little bit.

This is designed as an autism-friendly neighborhood, which means it will be focused on autism, but you don't have to have a diagnosis to live there, but just an affinity for those who, who have a diagnosis or, or maybe feel like they, they have those tints. Tendencies.

But the idea is that with what we've created with the clinic and the community center and now with the neighborhood is we're going to demonstrate that all individuals on the spectrum are welcome in neurodiverse communities, that they have something to share, that they can have pride in where they live.

They're not relinquished to group homes, things like that, which now are being investigated and rules are changing there. Tricia can tell you more about that, but it is definitely an autism-focused community, but you don't need to have a diagnosis.

All right, thank you. And ma'am, what was your name? We just need that for, for our minutes.

Pamela Moose.

Okay.

And so that means, so would the, the buildings, the homes be sold solely to people that have autistic tendency, or are they really open to the public with the fair housing laws?

Yes, open to the public.

Open to the public. Okay, thank you.

All right, thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to speak to this tonight? All right, if you can just state your name.

Keith Walker again. Thank you. I happen to sit in this meeting with him in the Planning Commission, I don't know, a year and a half, 2 years ago, when he presented this and the Planning Commission denied him. And I was appalled at the Planning Commission for doing what they did. The support he had for the autism and the community to try to build— there's people that want to buy these houses for their kids to support the autism thing, I thought was a great thing when I sat and listened to the whole structure that I didn't know anything about. And so I'm glad that it's back before the council. The community was fighting him because he was trying to put a road through and they were all worried about the traffic. And it just was absurd because those developments now are being developed and the roads are going through and he got denied a year and a half to 2 years ago. And I'm glad to see this happen and I'm grateful to see, I hope What I've witnessed here tonight come to fruition of what I witnessed a couple years ago, that I was appalled at what happened. So I'm grateful for that, for the, for the applicant. Thank you.

All right, thank you. Anybody else who would like to speak to this? Okay, welcome, and go ahead and state your name.

Good evening, this is Marion Baxter and I live in Southwest Orem. And I will tell you, in Wildwood Hollow where we raised our family for over 36 years, the healthiest combination within that neighborhood was that it always, from the time in the '70s when it was first built to today, has been a mix of every age and stage of life. And I was not aware of this community until tonight and this development request, but I will tell you, the more that we integrate— Orem has always had a reputation of being a patchwork quilt of high-end homes to every stage and size because people love their neighborhoods. And there is a way to make a difference in communities by involving a healthy mix. And from what I've heard briefly this evening in the work meeting before— and thank you for having those online— I literally appreciate how much Orem has the ability to welcome all and create safe and productive neighborhoods. So thank you for your attention.

All right, thank you. Anyone else who'd like to speak to this this evening? All right, I'll go ahead and close the public hearing and bring this back to the City Council. Council, as you'll recall, this came to us in May, and we had a discussion about it then and asked the applicant if they would like to to come back with a road that would connect to Geneva Road. And, and at that point, we encouraged them to do so. And so they've done that. And so I would open this up for discussion or work on this as we're reviewing this again. Yeah, go ahead.

Thank you, Mayor. I just, I just want to say how grateful I am. To the applicant, I remember that meeting very well. It's a very emotional meeting, uh, not in a bad way, but in a very good way. And I just want to say thank you, first of all, for the amazing work that you do. I think it's important. I think it's compassionate. I think it's life-changing, uh, for all involved. And so I want to say thank you for that.

Thank you.

Secondly, I want to say thank you for reworking your plan, for listening to the neighbors, the concerns that came up, and coming up with what I think is a beautiful, a beautiful, a beautiful plan moving forward. So, thank you for, for being here again and again. Thank you for listening and for the great things that you're doing.

Right. Thank you. Councilmember Millett, and then Councilmember Gail.

Yeah, I just want to echo that. You know, I've been here for this process and it's It's been arduous, and I appreciate your patience. Our planning process is sometimes very difficult. We do have to listen to everyone, and we do have to provide access for everyone. And just so grateful for this exit onto Geneva. I think we have a win-win here with both neighborhoods on that. And I just want to say thank you for the invitation to your grand opening. That was so amazing. I have, um, a nephew with autism. I have neighbors across the street, 4 of their 5 kids have autism, you know. And I— it was so— and I saw them at the— your grand opening, my neighbors. It was so incredible to see the work that you do and to see from when— I'm thinking 4 years ago is when the first time I met you, 3 or 4 years ago— and just to see how your dream is coming together. I appreciate that, and just thank you for the service that you offer and for the patience with our process. Thank you so much. I just want to say I was so happy to see you on the agenda when I opened my email and said, there they are, they've done it, they put the road through. So I'm happy that you were able to do it. Thank you for the work you do, and I just echo everything that Councilmembers Millett and Lamson have said. So happy to see you here.

All right, thank you. Anybody virtually would like— would you like to have any comment?

This is Quinn.

Just—

okay, go ahead, Quinn.

Yeah, thank you so much for your flexibility on this. I'm also delighted. Thank you.

All right. Yes, I'm— I was so— I, in fact, I asked— I can't remember who I asked. I said, when, when is it on the agenda? When's it coming back? And because I can't wait to vote yes on this. And I think it's a wonderful project for our community. And I want to thank you too, as well, for the work you do. We've talked, and thank you. That's all I'll say. Thank you for what you do. Council, all right. I'll make a motion.

Do you want me to do a motion?

Yes, I would love for you to do a motion.

to approve amending Article 2253A and the zoning map of the City of Orem by changing the zone of the properties located generally at 1875 South Geneva Road from OS-5 open space to PRD planned residential development, and to amend Appendix KK site plan Farmhaven to include the subject property and amend the project layout.

Thank you. We have a motion. Is there a second?

I second. Right.

Thank you, Councilmember Gale. We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? Any more discussion? All right, I'm going to go ahead and vote aye. Councilmember Lamson?

Aye. Aye.

Councilmember Kilpatrick?

Aye.

Councilmember Muelstein?

Aye.

Councilmember Meekum?

Aye.

Right. Thank you. Motion passes unanimously. Thank you. All right, we now have our city manager information items. We'll turn the time over to our city manager, um, Brandt Bybee.

Many of you were at the Aloha Fest this last weekend. We already have the participation, uh, estimates, and the attendance of the Aloha Fest rivaled Lights On and Taste Feast of Orem. So 2 of our bigger events. So pretty exciting. So we continue to be a magnet for, for great community events.

And we have— I have to give an award to the mayor because she sat in a chair in the sun for the first 30 minutes or so, right?

They—

you—

I was sitting there thinking, move her in the shade, please. But it was fabulous. And you're, you're Your comments were so wonderful there, so thank you.

Well, thank you. It was, it was a lot of fun. And yes, if you— I hope that they— we can continue to be their hosts.

So, and if I could add something, we were there, uh, in the evening and that park was packed and it was so fun. And we were astounded to see Iam Tongi perform He was not anywhere in any of the material that we had seen, but we had an American Idol winner here in Orem Fest— or not Orem Fest, in Orem City Park for Aloha Fest. And that place was bumping.

I mean, it was so much fun.

And anyway, thank you to whoever made that happen because it was awesome.

Yeah, it was— I can't remember saying his last name and his family, but his foundation.

We're glad it was a huge success and we'll, you know, continue to help it moving forward. And speaking of being out in the sun, we will have a tent for you all at the World Folk Fest that is tomorrow. 5:45 PM is when it starts. Your tent will be right next to the outdoor stage there. And just be aware, the 9 countries that are having representatives come, they want to take photos with y'all, and they have a, you know, small gift to, to share.

So, so that— and that's tomorrow night, Council, starting at 5:45. 5:45. All right, thank you. Anything else?

All done?

Okay, Council, we have one more item, and that is to adjourn to a closed session in the Summit concert, uh, conference— Summit concert room. We're going to have a karaoke night. No, adjourn to a closed session in the Summit conference room to discuss pending or reasonably imminent litigation, the character or professional competence of an individual, or the purchase of or lease of real property.

So moved.

Thank you. A motion and a second?

Second.

Right, thank you. A motion and a second. Um, go ahead, Councilmember Lamson, how do you vote?

Aye.

Aye.

Aye. Councilmember Aye. Councilmember Meekum.

Aye.

Councilmember Kilpatrick.

Aye.

All right, thank you. We're going to go ahead and adjourn to a closed-door session.